Englih Mastiff with Agression Issues

[BigAA]

This is my first post on the forum but have always enjoyed the information and community of large breed owners... especially English Mastiff's
Here's my issue and I'll try to be as brief as possible and appreciate your input.
I got my first English Mastiff 2 years ago and quickly realized this is the ONLY breed I'll ever own again and perfect for me, especially with their sweet and calm personality. I've been singing the praises of the breed since I got 'Moose' and everyone is always amazed at how gentle he is. My wife's coworker heard this and after doing his own research got one 2 months ago. He has 3 young children and their new addition was sweet and playful about 90% of the time, but when he would have a treat or sometimes when the kids would get too close he would show teeth, growl, and snap. Our friend didn't want to risk anything with small kids and after the latest outburst asked us if we would take him... which we did and now I have 3 dogs (which I said I never would do! LOL) ... a 4yr old Lab, 2yr old English Mastiff, and now a 6month old English Mastiff.
I've seen the agression firsthand the last few days and when the other dogs are around he takes his place in the pack as submissive and is playful and obedient. However, doing my own calm training (Cesar Millan style) one-on-one the outbursts are unpredictable and completely unwarranted... showing teeth, growling, and snapping. He isn't neutered yet, but have scheduled that to be done this Friday and hopeful it will reduce a lot of the aggressiion. I've read other posts that there could be a medical issue which I have also addressed and nothing found... From everything I've read and known firsthand with Moose the last 2 years, this behavior is so unlike the breed and characteristics which has me baffled. Is there anything someone else has tried or suggestions of training scenarios that I can do? Thanks!

 

[Smart_Family]

I would really reconsider neutering him thus early especially since there is no guarantee that it will help with the aggression. Neutering before 18 months (although 24 months is ideal) can cause a whole bunch of problems including joint issues, bone issues, and stunted growth among other things. Have you consulted a trainer? Aggression that young definitely needs some professional help.

 

[BigAA]

I've only had him for 3 days so I haven't contacted a trainer yet. This was a last minute decision to help a friend and take on the responsibility of adding another member to the family... and ultimately trying to save an English Mastiff. I've been working with him these few days and have established dominance and definite signs of improvement since the first dayand the issues that our friend reported having... I'm hopeful but looking for any suggestions for taking this on myself.
Neutering at young ages comes under some scrutiny and there are several opinions like yours that I respect and take into account. However, our vet has said that 6 months is the youngest she would ever recommend, and in her 20+ yrs experience there are some signs of not growing to full potential but with large breeds like Mastiff's it's minimal and the joint/bone issues aren't typically related to neutering. In my case... with his aggression, humping, and overall tendencies, the potential good of neutering far exceeds the bad. Thanks for your input!

 

[allformyk9s]

My vet suggested waiting to neuter our CC pup until between 12-18 months UNLESS there were aggression issues, humping etc ... so I think you're making the right decision in having him fixed asap. I hope it helps

 

[Smart_Family]

Eh its not a guarantee that neutering is going to fix aggression. I personally would rather go the trainer route first then neuter early. If the training didn't work then yea I'd neuter early but the fact that there is no guarantee neutering will stop the aggression would make me consider other options first. Mastiffs aren't large breeds, they are giant breeds, and early neutering does cause joint and bone issues. By neutering you're removing the hormones he needs to finish growing which means his joints and his bones aren't going to be as strong as they need to be to carry his weight which means there's a good likelihood he'll rupture a tendon or blow a knee (which often happens in pairs). Paying to fix a blown knee or ruptured tendon is a lot more expensive than some training would be. Obviously you know best when it comes to your dog and I think it's awesome that you were willing to take him but I would do some more research first before making a decision either way. Definitely keep us updated!!!

 

[natsan6]

I'm sorry but just curious if you can pin down when his aggression is coming into play....what his triggers are? I saw your post said unpredictable and unwarranted but I would still encourage you to try to figure out different situations in which he showed aggression. You may not understand or see the exact trigger but someone on this board may have an EM with the same strange trigger or has at least seen it or something like it.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Neutering is not an aggression fix. Unless there is an intact female in the house, or the aggression appears to be ONLY against the neutered males the chances of neutering him fixing it are really small. And regardless of what your vet says big dogs really do benefit from waiting to neuter. Speak with a trainer first. What your describing sounds more like a combination of resource guarding and fear aggression with exact triggers unknown.

Next time he growls stop, look, what are you wearing (hat, if you have long hair how is it worn, shoes, skirt vs jeans, floppy sweatshirt vs suit and tie, etc), what are you carrying, what is HE carrying, what is he sitting on, is his food bowl nearby, or is there a treat or bone he was working on. Make note of EVERYTHING. Then change something and try it again.

 

[allformyk9s]

Wanted to add, should have above, the others are correct neutering him will not be the cure all - the vet I took Rhys too also stated that whatever behaviors are learned if he starts being aggressive/humping etc... will then have to be worked on of course but that the neutering should help some.

 

[seeknoxrun]

Hmm, it sounds very similiar to what I'm experiencing with my new little one (female EM, currently 12 weeks). We have an almost 8 month old male EM, and he has been the best dog. Similr t your situation, he has single handedly turned me into a lifelong fan of the breed. We decided to bring in a female pup (I like the balance, I suppose) from the same breeder, expecting similar personalities... Boy we were in for a surprise.

She immediately demonstrated extreme fear reactivity to other adult dogs, far beyond what I had ever seen a puppy display. And shortly after that, started resource guarding against my male and then against my husband and myself. We are now working closely and extensively with a trainer on her issues. She's a very dominant personality and, according to my trainer, her behaviors are her attempt to feel her way around the "pack structure." We've made *some* progress with her resource guarding, but we're still having issues when she's in possession of something novel or particularly tasty. Her reactivity is still a work in progress... We're experimenting with some different techniques and approaches, and hopefully we'll find something that will have a positive effect on her.

If you'd like to speak more in depth, shoot me a message or something. I'll share what I've experienced and what techniques my trainer and I are trying out.

 

[BigAA]

Thank you all for the input and concern... seeknoxrun, it does sound like you're having similar issues and I would love to hear more. I sent you a message and I'll post the bulk of that message here for everyone to offer suggestions...

 

[BigAA]

I was feeling pretty good about things until last night. I had given him a bath 2 nights ago and held him in my arms on the couch wrapped in a towel afterwards and he feel asleep snoring on my chest for about an hour, and the next morning I brought him up to the bed with me and he snuggled with my wife for a while... and this whole time during the day and night he was playing and sweet like a normal puppy... THEN last night.
I wanted to keep pushing my luck to see what would happen. The previous owner said it was worse when he had a treat (chewy stick like rawhide) and someone would go near him. I had tested this the last few days and didn't think it was an issue, but i let him gnaw on it and enjoy it for awhile and then tried to get close and take it away... I got too close and his lips snarrled and showed teeth... I continued to put my hand on him and he snapped back a few times, growling loudly and showing teeth. I brought my 2 1/2 yr old EM over since he seems to be the pack leader and calming presence but the puppy lunged at him and barked... this situation has happened twice since we got him on Friday night. The other times there wasn't a treat around, food, or toy... just me and him. I would be petting him and something would trigger him to start shaking and snarling his lips... I would push on and see teeth and growling. Another instance was my 11yr old daughter was lying on the floor with all 3 dogs petting and being sweet. He just started a low and soft growl while she was petting, then I went over and the teeth came out along with nasty aggression.
So, I guess I need to know what to do in these scenarios. Do I keep pushing the situation and lay him on his back so he knows I'm in charge being careful not to get bit while he's looking like a demon child or let him cool off and try again... in my thinking, that would just reinforce his behavior, if he snarls and I back off. I probably watch too much Dog Whisperer and some of his techniques have worked but I've never experienced a dog like this and don't want to give up, but I also need to protect my family and my wife is the biggest dog lover and she's having hesitations about continuing to rehabilitate him.
I appreciate any help or suggestions you might have. It's just so unlike the breed with my experience and completely opposite of my other EM that is wonderful. My next step is to probably find a good trainer locally that can assist but I would like to try everything myself first, if possible. Also, I am reconsidering having him neutered this week since he is so young but would like to see some kind of progress before I take that step which my vet and others have recommended.
Thanks again for all the help and input. It is much appreciated!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Definetly some resource guarding (aggression over a toy, food, treat, or other "special" item), not one I've personally dealt with so I'll let someone else speak up, but if you google "dog resource guarding" there's tons of information.

Possibly over stimulated with the child, or else he wasn't as comfortable with the child as you thought he was (some dogs do not appreciate petting, or get over stimulated by it really quickly). Have her NOT pet him, or only pet him once or twice and then stop. And definetly advise her to becareful of her interactions with him. I'd suggest NOT lying/sitting on the floor with him (it puts her on his level, physically and mentally as far as he's concerned). Same for you, avoid petting, or only pet once or twice and then stop.

The reaction to the dog you see as pack leader isn't actually surprising. The pup is having to feel his way into the household and figure out his place and so he's going to push on the other dogs (and you) to figure out what he can get away with.

Definetly find a trainer but research resource guarding so that everyone in the family has a basic idea of how to handle it when he decides something is HIS.

 

[LesWil]

I would talk to a trainer because each dog is different. But here is a little bit that helped us. We have a male cane corso named Tyson. When he was about 5 months old he would snap just at my daughter when he had a treat or was on his bed. We believe he thought she was a dog because he would not do it to us. We have solved this issue several ways.

1) We enforced the nothing in life is free. He was also no longer allowed on the bed or any furnature ( and still is not). He has to do a trick or work for anything he gets I won't even open the door for him to go outside unless he first sits. We also changed where he sleeps at night he use to sleep next to our bed but know he sleeps in a crate in my daughters room next to her bed.

2) When he was chewing a bone we would trade the bone for a better treat and then give him the bone back. So now he does not care at all if we take his bone because he think he is going to get a treat instead.

3) This last one is contraversal but it did help with Tyson. Once he snapped at my daughter and my husband grabbed him with force and pined him (he did not hit him) If you chose this route make sure you can follow through with it.

Tyson is now about seven months old and he is a great dog no problems. I would talk to a trainer each dog is different so what worked for Tyson might not work for other dogs. I hoped this gave you hope because it had crossed my mind to get rid of him and I am very glad I gave him a chance. He now knows his place in the pack

 

[Jadotha]

I have a couple of questions and then I'll relate our experiences with a similar set of issues.

How old was the pup when your wife's co-worker got him? If he wasn't an 8 -12 week old puppy, do you know anything about his background -- some of what you describe sounds like fear aggression, which is quite often experience-based. Where did he come from -- a breeder or....? If a breeder, did the previous owner not have a contract with the breeder to take the dog back if the owner couldn't keep him? Was the breeder contacted about the issues?

Here is our similar experience and what we did...

Last year we adopted a five-year-old Irish Wolfhound, named Ike. Ike's owner had abandoned him at her training facility, and they were planning to just put him to sleep because they thought no one would adopt a huge (38" at the withers) IWH of his age. Fortunately a friend alerted us and we saved him. We were only told that he had 'nipped' his owner and she was afraid of him. When we got him home, he was very well mannered, laid back, friendly and seemed to have a sweet disposition. However, IWH's, like Mastiffs like to just plop down where ever they want to -- usually in the most inconvenient, high traffic area they can find. One day my daughter accidentally nudged him with her foot whilst stepping over him. He reared up, snarled and grabbed her foot, shaking it. His teeth penetrated the leather, but not her skin. We quickly discovered that he had serious triggers about being nudged, stepped on, or even touched and petted when he was sleeping -- or just lying down.

A couple of weeks later, Ike managed to cadge a box of baker's chocolate from the kitchen and ran downstairs to devour it. My husband spotted him and quietly and gently but firmly attempted to take it away. Ike leaped up, growling and snarling and bit his hand three times before my husband could stop the attack by getting behind a chair. SO, we also have a huge resource guarding issue (although interestingly, only with treats, not his food bowls).

So here's what we did:
Re the resource guarding, we instituted a form of NILF -- Ike did not get treats at all unless he obeyed a command first. We also taught him and started playing the "YES --NO" game. In this game (best started outside), you throw a treat some distance away, then say "YES!" allowing the dog to go eat the treat, and praising. When that is established, you add a "Wait" before letting the dog go eat the treat, slowly extending the 'wait' time. Then you throw a treat, but tell the dog "NO - leave it" and walk past. As soon as you are past it, praise and give a treat. Gradually, you shorten the distance you toss the treats until they are right in front of the dog. (The "No -- leave it" command is also useful in preventing chasing the cats or other furry animals).Next we added 'trading' as LesWil described, whilst teaching a 'drop it' command.
It only took a few weeks to overcome this issue. Once in a long while, when he steals high value treats (e.g.., roast chicken wrapped in aluminum foil) that he knows he's not going to get back, he will grumble a little but will Drop it and Leave it. (We do have to work on ninja counter surfing, still). We have also found it helpful with all of our dogs to give them some place in the house (crate/bed/rug/area) that is 'theirs' -- where no one will intrude on or bother them.

Re: The triggers around nudging, petting etc. It was our opinion that this was fear aggression, partially triggered by a startle response. We could have just told him to move, but he has arthritis and getting up uncomfortable, and it wouldn't fix the problem. We started talking to Ike before we stepped over him. We would say, "Ike, stepping over", and if he didn't react he would get praise and a treat. Or we would greet him so he wasn't taken by surprise and then pet him. Over time, we de-sensitised him to stimuli, to the point that recently he rolled over whilst my husband was stepping over, and my husband inadvertently trod on Ike's paw. He just looked up with an aggrieved expression.

So, there are some possible approaches. Also, as Natsan6 says, it is important to try to identify and understand your pup's triggers -- this is vital to successful behaviour modification. Praise/reward the behaviours you want (or baby steps towards them). I would not keep trying to push on through the situation. If your dog is growling he is telling you he is very uncomfortable with whatever is happening. If you persist, in my opinion and experience, you are very likely to incite a bite.

It sounds like a trigger definitely involves petting. Can you narrow it down to something a bit more specific -- particular areas of his head and/or body that he doesn't like being petted? Duration? As Ruthcatrin said, some dogs get overstimulated or simply don't like being petted. Amount of pressure applied? Kind of petting -- stroking, scratching, patting -- etc.

Can you identify anything specific that you do during your calm one-on-one training that evokes his growling/snarling response?

Good luck

 

[BigAA]

I wanted to update everyone with the progress so far and thank you all for the comments, suggestions, and opinions. I'm not out of the woods yet, but there has been some progress and suggestions from this forum allowed me to understand what is/was happening and gave me a path to do more research in possible corrections.
I know some of you were against the idea of neutering at a young age but we did go ahead with that procedure last Friday. After careful consideration and discussions with my vet and other insights I found with research it was in MY best interest and my family to go ahead. I know it won't cure the agression but as my vet explained it makes the playing field level since my 4yr old Lab and 2 yr old EM are neutered... and the humping and showing himself has definitely decreased in a week.
In the last week and half I have been working with him daily with the suggestions mentioned above and concentrating on what definitely appears to be a resource guarding issue. When he has a toy or chew treat, I offer a small tasty treat and say "drop" and exchange the toy for the treat. I wait a few minutes and give the toy back... then repeat a few times so he realizes that when I approach wanting the toy I'm coming with something better. I don't always give him a treat now, just a good pet and say "good boy" ... this appears to be working great. Also, when he is eating I will do the same thing initially with a treat and take his food bowl, then I will repeatedly put his food in my hands to eat from and take the bowl while he is eating, making him sit until I give it back... essentially making him work for his food, treats, toys while teaching him not to be so aggressive and guarded. So far, this has worked for me and I havent seen a growl, teeth, or any bad behavior in over a week... however, I need to show my wife and daughter what I'm doing so we're all on the same page because they've both seen growling, teeth, and lunging 1-2 times in the last few days when I'm not around... while eating and with his toys. The only thing I've seen was lunging and growling at my Lab yesterday when he had a toy on his bed and the Lab approached him to check things out... is there a way to train the resource guarding against the other dogs? I went through my same routine of getting the toy with a treat and then I started giving the toy to the Lab to show him that he was safe and ok, but if there is anything else to try let me know.
Thank you all again. I will continue to update and listen to suggestions as they come.

 

[Franklin]

I would not have the food available to him at all except when it's his feeding time, I have had experience with this kind of a German shepherd and It took me 3 months and he was the best dog for training. He was bold fearless and did way too good after countless hours of work in those 3 months. He was NOT neutered btw. I am against neutering if you should know.

Giving him food is a very important part of showing them that we are incharge of them and they have to listen and behave as we would want them too. I am old school and I would tap his back hard if he showed aggressive behavior or growl at someone. Growling at other dogs is not uncommon, it's his basic instinct that is telling him that he can be the alpha dog among those dogs at your house regardless of how many years they have been there. So if he wants to compete for alpha title you cannot do much about it and he is going to be the alpha if he stronger then other dogs. Even after you neuter him ! I can guarentuee that he will not give up on the alpha thing.


There is a difference between beating them up like you're drunk and your wife pissed you off and you're taking it out on your dog and dominating them to show that You are the master and he is the pet! However, Just as each of us have different learning styles, each dog learns/responds better to different methods of training. Some respond to simple vocal commands and hand signals and a gentle tap on the butt, others need a little more control and forceful behavior management. Find what works best for you and your dog.

In nature, the alpha shows the others who's boss by tackling them down and growling in their face. I'm not saying you have to growl and bark, but Definitely use a firm commanding voice. And don't back down. Dont be afraid either. Dogs can sense fear. If you show that you're afraid of his growling/aggressiveness, you'll have a harder time convincing him you're the boss.

Pin him down to ground by his neck ( use your whole body to pin him if you have to -if he's that big) and use a firm deep voice telling him "NO!!!!" when he does that and show him what is allowed and what is not allowed. It's better than having to put him down forever for causing serious damage in future.

if you can afford the training classes for him I would suggest that. Which again you can do it yourself if you have time on your hand.

Z

 

[BillyD]

I would really reconsider neutering him thus early especially since there is no guarantee that it will help with the aggression. Neutering before 18 months (although 24 months is ideal) can cause a whole bunch of problems including joint issues, bone issues, and stunted growth among other things. Have you consulted a trainer? Aggression that young definitely needs some professional help.

Hey just saw this... Not to derail the thread but we just rescued a 9 month old male english mastiff and we are being forced to neuter him this month. It's in the contract. Now this is giving me pause, but I don't think I have any recourse. Any insight/advice you could offer?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Common rescue contract requirememt. You can contact them and explain your concerns and see if they'll let you stretch it. Otherwise.....well, its a contract that you signed, but I know of people who signed a contract with the local shelter and then refused to neuter till later, in their case the shelter didn't do followups so they were able to get away with it, but depending on the rescue and the contract attempting to bend the contract you signed could loose you the dog.

 

[Smart_Family]

Hey just saw this... Not to derail the thread but we just rescued a 9 month old male english mastiff and we are being forced to neuter him this month. It's in the contract. Now this is giving me pause, but I don't think I have any recourse. Any insight/advice you could offer?

Many rescues and shelters won't budge. The only thing I can think of, which may not even work, is to find a vet that agrees with waiting and see if they will talk to the rescue for you. As Ruth mentioned though it could cause the dog to be repossessed so make sure you go about it respectfully.

 

[BillyD]

Common rescue contract requirememt. You can contact them and explain your concerns and see if they'll let you stretch it. Otherwise.....well, its a contract that you signed, but I know of people who signed a contract with the local shelter and then refused to neuter till later, in their case the shelter didn't do followups so they were able to get away with it, but depending on the rescue and the contract attempting to bend the contract you signed could loose you the dog.

Many rescues and shelters won't budge. The only thing I can think of, which may not even work, is to find a vet that agrees with waiting and see if they will talk to the rescue for you. As Ruth mentioned though it could cause the dog to be repossessed so make sure you go about it respectfully.

Thank you guys. It's definitely not worth losing the dog over. He was about to be euthanized in an Alabama shelter. Plus he and I are already completely attached. Is there scientific evidence linking early neutering in large breed dogs and those health problems? Maybe that would help my argument.