Do you see red flags with this breeder?

[ferox]

Hopefully I am in the right place, you seem like the right people to lend some knowledgeable advice.

I am seriously considering buying a mastiff companion pup from North Texas Mastiffs from a littler to be born late this month, however a couple things might be red flags but I am not sure.

The Dam is NT HARLEE BIG DREAMER - FAIR hips, NORMAL elbows but no other health screenings. Red flag?

The Sire is not listed on the offa website but here is North Texas breeder's link to his pics, Sherwood's Tough Aet Jo

My concern is breeding fair to fair (or worse) hips. Any thoughts or advice are greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

[DennasMom]

I don't know anything about the breeder... so this is just based on what they have on their website.
The website has lots of good information, and nice pictures.

But... "Many of our dogs reside in Palmer TX with Roderick. He has a wonderful boarding facility..."
The dogs aren't family dogs?
They live at a boarding facility?


Some of the more informed people here hopefully will chime in on the "fair"x"fair" breeding.

 

[WalnutCrest]

The sire to the litter (Flint) ... I've seen his dad. If you'd like to know about the sire, you should contact Sherry Deans with Sherwood Mastiffs, since she bred both of his parents. She could probably give you the fairest description of the dogs behind the sire, as she has the most reputational risk with regards to whether or not he's up to snuff (so to speak). Sherry is a vet and, sometimes, can be tough to reach.

Regarding a 'fair' x. 'fair' breeding ... while I'll not say I"ll never ... I will, however, say only very very rarely and only for a very specific reason. Based on the pictures of the dogs involved in this breeding, I am not convinced that the two parents are of high-enough quality for me to do that breeding. I'm sure there are other very well-seasoned and highly respected breeders who'd disagree with me ... just stating my own opinion on the matter. My belief is that the only time to do a breeding is when you're breeding the best to the best, and if you don't have 'the best' then don't breed.

There are more than a few red flags. One very notable one is that pedigrees aren't actually shown (or if they are, they're tough to find (as if they're trying to hide them)).

While there is no reason to suspect that these pups might not be good family pets, based on the information and pictures available on the website, I believe there are probably higher-quality pups out there.

 

[ferox]

Thank you for the advice. Since I'm looking purely for a companion pup I'm sure this litter would be just fine, however, in doing my research on purebred mastiffs and coming to understand the importance of ethics in the process, I'm not sure I should buy from someone who doesn't adhere to the highest and strictest standards. It's tough to be so discriminating when the price variance can be so huge. This breeders pups are going for around $1500. I may contact another breeder I'm told will have a litter around the same time for about $2500. Too much for a companion?

 

[Oscar'sMom]

I don't have any advice re: breeding; however, we paid $2500 for our companion pup. I'd pay it again in a heartbeat. From my very very limited experience, I think that can be normal. We felt the price we paid was for a healthy pup from healthy parents and a reputable breeder. Everyone is different, but we felt like the price we paid rewards us everyday with lots of puppy kisses

 

[zardac]

We paid that for our companion puppy.

This wasn't the highest price we encountered, and there were a plethora* of lower priced dogs available out there.

The cost wasn't a big factor for us.

We're not rich, but other issues (ancestry, health, temperament) took priority.

A mastiff isn't exactly like a boat (a boat is a hull that displaces money) but can be expensive...and going for a cheap pup is unlikely to pay dividends in the long run.

There are no guarantees in life though, we just wanted to increase the likelihood of getting the perfect puppy.



*when I say plethora, I always feel I should throw in "cornucopia" (so there it is).

 

[WalnutCrest]

The way I think of it is this ...

If you buy a pup of a particular breed, you want that dog (when taken out in public) to be a billboard for what that breed is supposed to be about. You want it to exude breed type. If it doesn't, then why did you get the pup you got?

Said another way, I know people who've purchased a poorly bred Mastiff and had strangers ask them if it was a Great Dane. How sad is that? Their dog looks so little like a Mastiff that the strangers they encounter with their dog wonder if it is an entirely different breed.

So, where do you get a pup that's out of parents that exude breed type?

Well, the first step on that process is to really (!!!) understand what "breed type" really means. To do that requires education. Not a half-dozen hours of education, but hundreds of hours ... possibly over years.

I've owned Mastiffs for nearly 20yrs and am still learning from people who've been in Mastiffs for 40yrs! There is no end in the learning.

Another thing to consider that I've heard others say ... that if you get a poorly bred dog out of poorly bred parents, while you might save on the up-front purchase price, you will pay the difference in medical bills later on.

And, in that case, you might as well spend more to get the best-bred pup you can out of the highest quality parents that you can find.

PS -- The shiniest websites rarely related to the highest quality animals. Heck ... I don't even have a website (at least right now, as it's down for a long-overdue-redo)!

 

[ferox]

Thank you all for the input! I have decided to go with a $2,500 pup from a reputable breeder with pedigrees and health tests on everything. I trust what you all are saying in that cheaper up-front can likely equal high costs down the road.

BTW, WalnutCrest. I specialize in modern web design. I'm sure you have your people, but I'd be happy to make a mock-up site for you so you can see the possibilities available. I have been to many kennel sites so far and every single one is in need of an update. Anything you envision for your website can likely be done. PM if at all interested.

 

[karennj]

I am just going to through this out there that buying reputable with good parents does not mean you wont have problems. It lessens the risk for sure, but it is still possible. I am not a breeder but I have spent some time looking at the OFA records and I have found that you can get mild results even if the parents are both excellent and I have seen parents with good or mild produce excellent pups. I feel like people put too much weight in the testing sometimes. I believe other things are just as important and longevity should be the focus. My swiss mountain dog was from a reputable breeder who showed and did health testing. Parents were excellent but young. My girl had cancer at 6months old and her hips are not great. If I was doing it all over again I would be more focused on the age/heath of the parents, grandparents (if deceased, what age did they die and what from?) and would ask about past litters (maybe even ask for a person or 2 from a past litter that I could contact to ask them about their dog). I would ask about instances of cancer, allergies, hip issues and bloat. I know a woman with a swissy who has like 4 littermates who bloated. So in one litter you had 4 pups bloat at a younger age. That is the type of stuff I would be focused on.

I also would be focused on temperament as well. How can you know you want a pup from the parents when you have not even met the parents? Not saying this directly to you but just in general.

Good luck on your pup!!!! Your doing the right thing about asking and researching before just running out and getting the first pup you can find.

 

[ferox]

I would love to see longevity as a focus for breeders. It just may not be a strong possibility when trying to conserve the primary traits of the breed. Maybe someone with actual knowledge of breeding can answer whether longevity is a real consideration.

 

[WalnutCrest]

It is a consideration for some ... including me.

And getting a pup out of health tested parents is absolutely NOT a guarantee of anything!

Good luck to you!