What's new
Mastiff Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Welcome back!

    We decided to spruce things up and fix some things under the hood. If you notice any issues, feel free to contact us as we're sure there are a few things here or there that we might have missed in our upgrade.

Cinder Starting Training

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
Now that she's all dry, and he decided he would let her come snuggle... she has forgiven him for bath time.... (she is also snoring!!!)

590357c63baf0a8b4a4173fb4ffeca45.jpg


Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
The purpose of the prong is to be able to communicate the dog is doing something wrong. It does that by making the dog uncomfortable. The dog does the behavior you don't like, you add pressure which tightens the prong. The dog gets uncomfortable and stops the behavior to turn off the pressure. If your dog is not liking the leash/walking on leash, the last thing I would do is introduce something associated with the leash that makes the dog uncomfortable. You want to make leash walking a positive experience not a negative one. For your situation specifically I do not believe a prong is the right tool.
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
Just remember...the worst, most harmful tool out there is not a collar. It's a human that doesn't know what they are doing.Love and affection do more to hurt dogs than any collar out there. I wish you luck and if you ever need help let me know or PM me. I'd be happy to help.[video=youtube;h3xxSBxVikc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3xxSBxVikc[/video]
I must be the worst dog owner and parent ever. All my kids (fur and non-fur) get lots of love and affection.
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
Oh dear, I finally got through the entire thread. Regarding the food, she tried to communicate multiple times she was uncomfortable and her warning was ignored. If you push me enough times I would snap as well. The only way she can really communicate is with that growl. Be careful sending her to the crate for growling. What you don't want to happen is she thinks that she is being reprimanded for growling. We want her to growl, growling tells us she is not comfortable. We want to avoid bites by knowing she is not comfortable. You had the right idea to work on the bone with her and your son. Showing her that your son is not going to steal her food is the right mindset. I would make your son = food for the next few weeks. With her on leash and you in control have you son feed her all her food little by little. If she growls, she is not sent away, your son is and so the food stops. Start her with a empty bowl, give your son the plate of food. Have him drop a little bit into her bowl and wait for her to eat it. Have him drop a little more and so on until the meal is finished. Do this for a few days and then start adding some movement. Have her with the empty bowl and have your son walk up and drop the the bit of food and walk away. She will eat it and then look for your son, wanting more. He should be across the kitchen. When she looks to him give praise and have him walk over and drop a bit more in. Keep repeating this process over and over. She will quickly understand son = food and him moving around the bowl means she is getting what she wants. Good luck.
 

season

Well-Known Member
I must be the worst dog owner and parent ever. All my kids (fur and non-fur) get lots of love and affection.

So does Solo. That wasn't the point. Love and affection need to be in balance with rules, structure, discipline etc. Those things aren't as fun as showering it with all sorts of affection and attention. That's what hurts dogs more than any collar will.


Carpe Diem
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Having dealt with two very severe resource guarders in my life, I can tell you that you want to get this under control now, before your puppy is much larger.

Step #1 in dealing with resource guarding is understanding that you *cannot* fix resource guarding by taking things away from a dog. You will *not* teach the dog to not guard by removing objects from the dog. In fact, that reinforces the idea that every time you approach, you take something away. I'm recommend a multi-step process to working with Cinder on guarding.

1. The most important step is to make sure that your son NEVER forces Cinder to bite him because he ignores her warnings and continues to approach her. Cinder did not deserve a time out for that situation. Your son approached and she growled, which was her saying "I'm uncomfortable, I don't want to escalate, please back off". Her verbal communication was ignored. Ignoring a dog's warning is like ignoring someone who says "please don't come near you, you're making me uncomfortable" and then approaching them anyways, and then being surprised when you get punched in the face.

2. As Karen suggested, build a positive association between your son and Cinder by setting up activities where he can walk by and reward her while she has a high value bone. No interaction needs to take place other than she needs to be laying on the ground chewing, and your son walks by, calmly drops a treat near her, and walks away. He can do the same thing while she's eating her food. The idea is to let her know that your son being nearby means good things happen, but not having him make her uncomfortable by invading her space or threatening her resource. Walk by, drop food, leave.

3. The other thing you should be doing is playing trade up games. Give Cinder a bone. Get an even higher value treat (cheese, small bits of meat), dangle it in front of Cinder's face while asking for a "drop it" and then reward when Cinder drops the bone. This will give Cinder the impression that every time you're taking something from her, she's getting something better in return.

4. The final thing is this - NEVER punish your dog for growling. Growling is a really important communication tool. Dogs don't have words, so any warnings we can hear should be taken as vital pieces of information.

To illustrate, this video shows a dog who has had the growl trained out of it. The dog is clearly uncomfortable, has no way of communicating the discomfort, and then snaps with no warning whatsoever: [video=youtube;rFVFq1kAhc8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFVFq1kAhc8[/video]

You don't want a Mastiff who feels like it is incapable of using a natural means of communication with you. Respect growling, figure out the source of the growling, and fix the source. Fixing the growl doesn't remove the discomfort, it only removes the unpleasant noise and leaves an uncomfortable dog with no means of defense besides biting.

You can overcome the ant hill that Cinder's resource guarding is now by working diligently to make sure she understands that you are not a threat to her things. However, if you ignore it, that tiny ant hill could turn into a mountain. I have large and permanent scars from my very severely resource guarding dog. Especially with kids in the picture, it's a problem that needs to be tackled asap.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Please read and re-read what Karen and Hiraeth posted. That's good, sound advice. Some of the hardest dogs I worked with in rescue were those that had been taught not to growl. They were the dangerous ones. One of my daughters is a vet tech (I think Karen is too). She appreciates a dog that growls because it lets her know that she needs to take extra precautions with that animal. Definitely make sure the kids all understand the importance of following the rules with the dog. Don't leave them unsupervised together. I know you know this, and as a parent I know that when you have so many little ones around it's hard to watch everyone all the time. And kids do kid stuff. Quietly. Which is why I think it's so important to have strict rules of behavior around the dog with strict consequences. Keep on top of things and let us know how it's all going.
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone!!! I will def work on the techniques suggested!! I didn't even think about punishing the growling.... I really don't want her not to growl...
In this specific situation Edwin was at fault because he didn't listen to me, and he kept at her... I was at fault because I didn't address it fully the first time... edwin didn't get much sympathy from me because he knew he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be...
All the kids give her treats and play with toys on a daily basis... this was the first time with this particular bone and cinder regarded as pretty high value...
I will continue working on all this and keep you all updated!!!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
Ps... I will also work on getting a video of her sit and stay training so far with getting her meal over lunch...
She was out of control when it came to running us over to get her food at meal time... half her food would go flying because she was trying to get to the bowl as we were filling it...
We have used these times to work on her sitting a small distance away from the food bowl and staying put long enough for us to put the food in the dish... she is getting much better at sitting on command (and has gotten to the point she almost automatically sits when she knows food is coming) and we usually have the food in the dish and are starting to take a step away from the bowl before she CALMLY gets up and heads for it.. we are about 50/50 on giving her the go ahead vs her ahead of the command...
Work in progress!! But we are getting there!!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
Also, yesterday the neighbors were working on getting car on a trailer to get it out of their backyard... well cinder had to potty...
She has been much better with the leash, and being more focused when I call her in the backyard during potty breaks...
Well we went out like normal (the leash on, but I let it drag), she did her business, but was very interested in watching these strange people next door... once her business was done she came right back next to me for her treat (like normal) ... she then stood right next to me as she focused on the neighbors... I told her to stay as she looked up at me, and gave her a treat...
she then started sniffing around like maybe she wasn't quite done with her business so I let her walk around a bit more... she decided she didn't have to go, but she did start toward the neighbors to investigate closer...
It was here that I called her, she turned and looked at me, and she looked at the guys, but decided she was gonna LISTEN!! she came back to me no problem!! She also didn't hesitate when I said back inside!!!
Again... work in progress, but im ok with baby steps!!!

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
Ok... got 3 vids over craig coming home for lunch of Cinder's lunch... we were in a time crunch as we were running out of time before he had to head back out...
Also cinder just woke up from her nap as he got home and then trying to get the video taken while my son was ramming around in the living room.... not to mention the phone decided to ring off the hook!!!
Lol... it took a couple of tries... but the 3rd video is usually what we have been getting the first try over the past 4-5 days... considering she had no control what so ever about 14 days ago... shes come a long way...




Cinder's 1st attempt
Cinder 1st feed/stay attempt 2-15-16 - YouTube

Cinder's 2nd attempt
Cinder 2nd feed/stay attempt 2-15-16 - YouTube


Cinder's 3rd attempt
Cinder 3rd feed/stay attempt 2-15-16 - YouTube

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
 

season

Well-Known Member
3rd times a charm they say. A couple things I'd do, but u do what works for you.
I'd start the whole "feeding routine" and work on a Place command at the same time. You can kill to birds with one stone. Maybe you're already working on place/duration. If u are use it during feeding time. If not work on a Place command then u can couple it while working on waiting for food.
I'd also start making him wait longer to eat. The sit for him is easy. Good time also to work on a down. Then add duration to him waiting for it. He can do it. All that stuff will be a great way to work, build confidence and build the trust/communication/leadership between u and the dog.


Carpe Diem
 

season

Well-Known Member
Good work. Forgot to mention, start using less vocals. Create space and compliance through body language and position as well. It's a great way to build confidence in yourselves as well. Once things become more routine and your dog knows exactly what u expect and you continue to follow through with those expectations you'll see you will barely need to talk.


Carpe Diem
 

season

Well-Known Member
One last thing then I'll shut up. I'd prepare his bowl in the kitchen, making him give me space away from me (distance and duration) and then bring it to him that way. That's just me.


Carpe Diem
 

season

Well-Known Member
I lied. I'd be doing that sitting/waiting for everything. Food. Thresholds. In and out of crate. Affection. Cuddle time. Anything. Make him work. Keep it up!


Carpe Diem
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
I agree with season. Try communicating with your voice less. We all do it, it is just human nature. Sometimes I try to get through an entire obedience session without using my voice at all. Most of how the dog reads you is through what your body is doing anyway. People tend to talk too much to their dogs. Also, I would agree to get a longer wait if possible before releasing. She was waiting, but she was not calm. You could see if when she almost popped up early (great catch by the way). Make her wait a minute longer than you think she even needs. From your description this is looking GREAT. You guys are doing a fantastic job, keep up the good work!
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
One last thing then I'll shut up. I'd prepare his bowl in the kitchen, making him give me space away from me (distance and duration) and then bring it to him that way. That's just me.


Carpe Diem
This the kitchen.... the island is to the right of the video and the step up on the left is where the dining table is... (it's kind of a huge space)
I work with her constantly on staying out of the kitchen space because she wants to be right under my feet when I'm cooking... my 2 legged kids are very well trained in this...

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
We haven't gotten to the place command too much... but she is good about going "to bed" (in the kennel) at night... so we will start incorporating that in there..
I also try not to repeat a command too many times, but craig is a little different... and we will work on adding in hand signals with voice...

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
I agree with season. Try communicating with your voice less. We all do it, it is just human nature. Sometimes I try to get through an entire obedience session without using my voice at all. Most of how the dog reads you is through what your body is doing anyway. People tend to talk too much to their dogs. Also, I would agree to get a longer wait if possible before releasing. She was waiting, but she was not calm. You could see if when she almost popped up early (great catch by the way). Make her wait a minute longer than you think she even needs. From your description this is looking GREAT. You guys are doing a fantastic job, keep up the good work!
We are working on longer wait time before releasing her to eat.... but considering this is just about 2 weeks in, we will take it!! LOL!!
I secretly thinks it's cute how she sits in so much anticipation (just like my other 4 kids) ... her control is getting better but she still has that little "shuffle" of anticipation as she sits.. (I know it won't be as cute when she's older and won't listen)


Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk