Back to Back Breedings

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

So I am a member of a couple different boards/pages that have different discussions and I like to always look into things and get different views. I always talk to my reproductive vet as well, so no worries that I go off what is written online only I just like to research a lot and I know that Back to Back breedings vs every other cycle or waiting until previous puppies have matured is always something that is debated. So I thought I would get your opinions on here and see what you think from other breeder's perspectives as well as pet and passionate breed owner responses.

So I will add a poll and you can vote and then give a reason or whatever you want to say in regards to it.

Here are a couple of articles I have found in regards to it...

http://www.rutlandmanor.com/uploads/5/6/3/1/5631556/_back_to_back_breeding.pdf
http://www.buckstonelabs.com/Back to Back.pdf
http://www.bijoupoodles.com/BreedingPractices.html

although there are many many more out there.

 

[Marrowshard]

Hm ... with regard to the particular resource articles:
Rutland Manor
"No responsible breeder who cares about their dogs would breed their bitches until they are exhausted, and rules certainly need to be in place to ensure that irresponsible breeders don’t exploit their dogs, however the current regulations in place in some states do not take into account the biology of the bitch. Breeding should be regulated by limiting the number of litters a bitch can breed or the age at which they should be desexed and retired."
That being said, the angle of the article is definitely skewed towards breeders who use their dogs primarily for production instead of for companionship. The feel is that a bitch who's done breeding will be desexed and rehomed rather than be a life-long member of the family, with or without reproduction-based health problems.

Buckstone Labs:
"Breeding back-to-back litters hardly gives you time to focus on what you’ve just accomplished before you’re knee deep in newspapers and pine chips once again."
Good point. It seems to me it would be hard to adequately gauge a litter's success in time to make an informed decision about having another one.

Bijou Poodles:
I started to read all the way through this then switched to skimming it instead ... not very well written and it's short on fact and long on personal opinion. I disagree that breeders must have lots of females and must rehome retired animals and that whether or not someone does it this way makes them a "responsible" breeder or not.

I guess at the end of the day, I don't have a specific problem with a couple of litters born back-to-back as long as everyone's well cared for and the matches are well planned but I would take issue with people using that as justification for using bitches as puppy factories, just breeding every heat cycle until the bitch is exhausted. It would depend a lot on the bitch, the owner, their motivations, etc. rather than being some hard and fast rule. Just my two cents as a non-breeder.

~Marrow

 

[ruby55]

Where I work, they have always been very careful with their breeding stock, & not bred back to back. In some cases, like one that came in today, the mother had a litter at age 2 (roughly), then no more until 5 or 6 years old. Possibly mating didn't take; didn't have a suitable stud; whatever.
They've FINALLY realized that they are putting mom in danger of all sorts of problems at this later age (duh), & there's more expense & a greater possibility of losing puppies. So it sounds like they're going to back to back, then spaying & retiring the moms. In fact I'm on my way out to attend a "breeder's seminar" at work (on my day off!) which will, I hope address this specific issue. I'll let you know when I get back...

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Hm ... with regard to the particular resource articles:
Rutland Manor
"No responsible breeder who cares about their dogs would breed their bitches until they are exhausted, and rules certainly need to be in place to ensure that irresponsible breeders don’t exploit their dogs, however the current regulations in place in some states do not take into account the biology of the bitch. Breeding should be regulated by limiting the number of litters a bitch can breed or the age at which they should be desexed and retired."
That being said, the angle of the article is definitely skewed towards breeders who use their dogs primarily for production instead of for companionship. The feel is that a bitch who's done breeding will be desexed and rehomed rather than be a life-long member of the family, with or without reproduction-based health problems.

Buckstone Labs:
"Breeding back-to-back litters hardly gives you time to focus on what you’ve just accomplished before you’re knee deep in newspapers and pine chips once again."
Good point. It seems to me it would be hard to adequately gauge a litter's success in time to make an informed decision about having another one.

Bijou Poodles:
I started to read all the way through this then switched to skimming it instead ... not very well written and it's short on fact and long on personal opinion. I disagree that breeders must have lots of females and must rehome retired animals and that whether or not someone does it this way makes them a "responsible" breeder or not.

I guess at the end of the day, I don't have a specific problem with a couple of litters born back-to-back as long as everyone's well cared for and the matches are well planned but I would take issue with people using that as justification for using bitches as puppy factories, just breeding every heat cycle until the bitch is exhausted. It would depend a lot on the bitch, the owner, their motivations, etc. rather than being some hard and fast rule. Just my two cents as a non-breeder.

~Marrow

Yeah those were just the first articles I started with on my research and there are good and bad points of them all. It why I said I wouldn't go off internet information on its own. I talk to my repo vet about each of my dogs, individually. Because even in my kennel each dog is different so I want to do what is best for each. I can see the merits to both arguments so will continue to research and then talk to my repro specialist. I am also bugging him to find out when he is doing another of his indepth seminars as he usually does it before the show season to get a good turn out.

Where I work, they have always been very careful with their breeding stock, & not bred back to back. In some cases, like one that came in today, the mother had a litter at age 2 (roughly), then no more until 5 or 6 years old. Possibly mating didn't take; didn't have a suitable stud; whatever.
They've FINALLY realized that they are putting mom in danger of all sorts of problems at this later age (duh), & there's more expense & a greater possibility of losing puppies. So it sounds like they're going to back to back, then spaying & retiring the moms. In fact I'm on my way out to attend a "breeder's seminar" at work (on my day off!) which will, I hope address this specific issue. I'll let you know when I get back...

Yes please let me know how the seminar goes as I am always interested in different view points on what the reproductive vets say as a clinical approach to the situation vs that of ours as pet owners/breeders.

 

[ruthcatrin]

FIrst off I read this thread this morning before I had coffee and all that came to mind at first was "but TMs only have one season a year so it'd still only be one litter a year!". Took me a moment to realize you weren't likely to be thinking of TMs

I guess at the end of the day, I don't have a specific problem with a couple of litters born back-to-back as long as everyone's well cared for and the matches are well planned but I would take issue with people using that as justification for using bitches as puppy factories, just breeding every heat cycle until the bitch is exhausted. It would depend a lot on the bitch, the owner, their motivations, etc. rather than being some hard and fast rule. Just my two cents as a non-breeder.

~Marrow

Otherwise I think my thoughts are about like Marrow's. In general I'm not a fan of it, but say, the bitch is coming down towards the end of her reproductive life and you've suddenly run across the TWO PERFECT males to match her too, or some such. If it was a regular practice to breed the bitch every cycle I'd have a problem, but the occasional two in a row, assuming she's healthy and physically up to the 2nd litter, wouldn't nessecarly bother me.

 

[Tailcreek]

I haven't read through the articles you posted, so I don't know if it was mentioned there that each and every time a bitch goes through a heat cycle her uterus is effectively aged due to the onslaught of hormones that spike up during the cycle. I know this reasoning has been used by reproductive vets to recommend you breed early, and back to back, then spay the bitch. In mastiffs the reproductive window is quite short. I wouldn't breed a girl before two or probably after five years. That basically leaves 3 prime years. If a bitch was bred twice, back to back if she was healthy and in good condition I don't think that is terrible. But continuing to breed back to back is unnecessary and unethical in my opinion. I personally like to see how the offspring are maturing as well before engaging in another breeding. Plus, how many litters do you need your girl to produce for you anyway? The max # I have ever had from one girl is two litters.

Jennifer
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com

 

[DennasMom]

I would think one litter a year (or less) would be best for the bitch, give her time to replenish her reserves for carrying and nursing the pups... but... that's just as a bystander.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I would think one litter a year (or less) would be best for the bitch, give her time to replenish her reserves for carrying and nursing the pups... but... that's just as a bystander.

Yah, I'd want a thurough vet check before the 2nd litter. Have to add that I didn,t vote. Cause it really boils down to the individual situation.

 

[northernmastiff]

I am against back to back if it is simply to pump out puppies, which a lot of breeders do unfortunately. I do feel that back to back are okay for several reasons:

1. The vet recommends it. There have been a few cases that I have experienced it.
2. The female is in good shape. No matter her age, if she is wiped out by the last litter, then under no circumstances should you breed her again, especially if she has not recovered.
3. She is at the end of her breeding career and they are looking to retire her. A lab breeder that I knew always waited until the dog had rest but she had a few times where she simply bred the dog back to back because it was going to be the dog's final litter. She also had a retirement home lined up for her and didn't want the family to have to wait a year to get the dog. They were happy to do so but she didn't want to make them wait.

Litters should never be back to back throughout and I think if you have a 3 litter limit on the dog, then she should get a break between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 so that she isn't being depleted so completely. Also, I would avoid a breeder who made back to back litters a common occurrence in their program. I don't like back to back breeding when it is the same male both times. I am kind of picky but I really think 1st and 3rd can be a repeat breeding but not 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd. So many things can happen and waiting until the pups are over a year old or even older gives the breeder a chance to see if something occurred with that pairing. My parents had a pairing that they thought was amazing with their Poms, litter was superb in shape and temp but it wasn't until they had done a second breeding (the dam was pregnant) that they found out two of the puppies had hereditary health problems. One or both of the parents were carriers of the gene (before DNA tests would be done), which became a problem in the young. One pup had only one lung and they found out when he was close to a year old.

Can you tell I am a bit particular? LOL.

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:20 PM ----------

I haven't read through the articles you posted, so I don't know if it was mentioned there that each and every time a bitch goes through a heat cycle her uterus is effectively aged due to the onslaught of hormones that spike up during the cycle. I know this reasoning has been used by reproductive vets to recommend you breed early, and back to back, then spay the bitch. In mastiffs the reproductive window is quite short. I wouldn't breed a girl before two or probably after five years. That basically leaves 3 prime years. If a bitch was bred twice, back to back if she was healthy and in good condition I don't think that is terrible. But continuing to breed back to back is unnecessary and unethical in my opinion. I personally like to see how the offspring are maturing as well before engaging in another breeding. Plus, how many litters do you need your girl to produce for you anyway? The max # I have ever had from one girl is two litters.

Jennifer
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com

I have heard three litters depending on the female and the breed. Labs are 3 litters tops. First litter is always after 2, then you have one a year for 3 years. The max age to breed a lab is 6 so it was 3 litters or 6 years of age, whichever came first. Also, one thing that really grates on my nerves is over using the male. You farm him out too much and then discover a problem, you could have dozens of pups with that same problem. Like females, males have a shelf life on their breeding career and I hate hearing about breeders still using a stud that is well into his geriatrics.

 

[northernmastiff]

I haven't read through the articles you posted, so I don't know if it was mentioned there that each and every time a bitch goes through a heat cycle her uterus is effectively aged due to the onslaught of hormones that spike up during the cycle. I know this reasoning has been used by reproductive vets to recommend you breed early, and back to back, then spay the bitch. In mastiffs the reproductive window is quite short. I wouldn't breed a girl before two or probably after five years. That basically leaves 3 prime years. If a bitch was bred twice, back to back if she was healthy and in good condition I don't think that is terrible. But continuing to breed back to back is unnecessary and unethical in my opinion. I personally like to see how the offspring are maturing as well before engaging in another breeding. Plus, how many litters do you need your girl to produce for you anyway? The max # I have ever had from one girl is two litters.

Jennifer
www.tailcreekmastiffs.com
www.thenaturalcarnivore.com

I have heard three litters depending on the female and the breed. Labs are 3 litters tops. First litter is always after 2, then you have one a year for 3 years. The max age to breed a lab is 6 so it was 3 litters or 6 years of age, whichever came first. Also, one thing that really grates on my nerves is over using the male. You farm him out too much and then discover a problem, you could have dozens of pups with that same problem. Like females, males have a shelf life on their breeding career and I hate hearing about breeders still using a stud that is well into his geriatrics.

 

[ruthcatrin]

See, I,d rather have an older stud. It gives you a better idea of what his health, and his parent's health, is like, and maybe even some of his other pups' health is like. If he's healthy, and physically up to the act, and has a reasonable sperm count go for it. Which isn,t to say farm him out to every bitch in town for his entire life either.....but the current run in alot of breeds and lines, where the parents are young always, you can be buying a pup who's parents are barely mature at 2yrs, who's grandparents are barely 4, and who's great grand's are barely 6, and there are SO MANY problems that don,t show up till then or later......with the females you're tied to her reproductive life, but waiting till the male is 6 or 8 or even 10 (assuming the above stated health facors) means that not only do you have a pretty good idea of what health problems HE's got, but also what his parents have and their parents.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I agree, I am like a lot of you it depends entirely on the dog and the circumstances and I would have to discuss it as a case by case with my repro vet to see what he would recommend with my females. I have read lots of different articles going back and forth on the points and it is a hot topic with lots of black and white people on both sides.

 

[northernmastiff]

See, I,d rather have an older stud. It gives you a better idea of what his health, and his parent's health, is like, and maybe even some of his other pups' health is like. If he's healthy, and physically up to the act, and has a reasonable sperm count go for it. Which isn,t to say farm him out to every bitch in town for his entire life either.....but the current run in alot of breeds and lines, where the parents are young always, you can be buying a pup who's parents are barely mature at 2yrs, who's grandparents are barely 4, and who's great grand's are barely 6, and there are SO MANY problems that don,t show up till then or later......with the females you're tied to her reproductive life, but waiting till the male is 6 or 8 or even 10 (assuming the above stated health facors) means that not only do you have a pretty good idea of what health problems HE's got, but also what his parents have and their parents.

I agree with you there but in labs, there were a lot of 12 to 15 year old studs that were being used. Poor dog couldn't stand and do the deed himself and needed AI for everything. Sperm ages with the dog and there is a higher risk of some hereditary diseases with the age of the dog. Works for people too. Older the father, older the sperm, higher the risk of some diseases and conditions. I love genetics btw so this has always been the part that interests me with breeding dogs. The science behind creating that perfect dog to breed standard by merging the right genes. Get me on the topic of genetics and I geek out. LOL.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Which is why I stated I'd want certain health expectations from the male. If he's no longer physically capable of the deed you'd better have a damned good reason for having him sire another litter, and money and "but he's such an awesome dog" don't qualify.....I might accept "we had a fire at the kennel and lost the pups from his last litter so we're hoping he's not to far gone......"

Edit: point about age of sperm, but I,d still rather see a "fully mature" stud than a 2yr old who's parents are just as young.....

 

[northernmastiff]

Which is why I stated I'd want certain health expectations from the male. If he's no longer physically capable of the deed you'd better have a damned good reason for having him sire another litter, and money and "but he's such an awesome dog" don't qualify.....I might accept "we had a fire at the kennel and lost the pups from his last litter so we're hoping he's not to far gone......"

Edit: point about age of sperm, but I,d still rather see a "fully mature" stud than a 2yr old who's parents are just as young.....

Me too. 6 years old is not too old to me, even an 8 year old or a healthy 10 year old. Plus, breed can play a big part in it. Our one pom stud wasn't used for the first time until he was 5, the last time they used him was at 13 or 14 I think. Dog lived until he was 22 years old. Probably could have used him a lot longer as he was just as spry as he was as a pup. He was never retired out of the home, he was just too special to everyone. Petey was over 3 when we used him for the first time. I shudder when I see those litters where both parents are a year old, grandma is 2 and great grandma is also on site and is 4 or 5.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yah pretty much!

 

[Cody]

Back to back... It is tricky.
I know some working people, who compete, will do back to back litters, then the bitch is out of commission so to speak for a relatively short time. I personally don't see the need for back to back however.
If I were breeding I would want to see how the pups from the bitch developed, what they took from the mom prior to breeding her again. I would think it would've more useful in choosing the next stud.
I however am extremely picky when it comes to breeders and what it is I am looking for in my breed. If i were ever to breed there are many things that are common practice with many breeders that I disagree with. That said I would only ever breed for myself, not to make money. So thing like back to back breedings wouldn't be an issue as I don't have space for that many dogs
As for repeat breedings... Those I see as a cash grab.
Why repeat, if you got what you wanted the first time, then you have what you want to further your program. Unless something terrible happened that you lost ALL the pups from that litter, then the only other reason to repeat is sales
Now back to back repeat litters make me laugh. That there says all that needs to be said about the breeder. Why would you repeat a litter 6 months down the road? $$$$$$$$
You have no idea how the first litter will turn out, if it turns out.
Seriously SO many really nice pups fall apart as 1 year olds.

 

[northernmastiff]

We need like buttons. LOL. I could see a repeat breeding if you didn't have the space to keep a puppy back from the first litter and wanted a second chance to do it. I know a breeder who did a repeat because another breeder that owned the male decided she wanted a pup after seeing the mature result of the breeding. It can happen. People who do a repeat breedings every time are just too lazy to go and look for a new male and I find that they aren't looking for improvement, just what makes the easiest money.