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Skilly

Well-Known Member
I called my breeder tonight regarding a puppy that is to come and join our family and she mentioned that she is not sure about his growth. She has now cut back on his food to control his growth a bit more, even though he is not a fat puppy, just a solid 8kg boy at 7.5 weeks. She is going to hold on to him a little longer than the typical 8 weeks to make sure he is healthy as she won't sell an unhealthy puppy (understandably - and as I have small children who have already had to deal with a kitten with bred in issues having to be put to sleep at 7 months old, it is best dealt with prior to us taking ownership, and if necessary, waiting for a healthy puppy from another litter).

What I didn't quite understand is the health issue. The biggest dog I have owned is a Rottweiler, so I don't really understand growth issues with dogs that big. She said his "front is growing a little crooked", but as with all puppies this can change from week to week so he will be visiting the vet a few more times in the next few weeks. As much as I would like to have him before 12 weeks so that he can get used to our nearly 3 and 6 year olds, it is a concern that needs to be watched. What does it mean for the dog if the "front is crooked" ? She said that if it doesn't correct itself he will have to be put to sleep :(

Thanks
 

Skilly

Well-Known Member
Anyone? I have tried googling but can't find anything. If it is just a cosmetic thing I don't understand why she'd be so drastic as we just want a happy, healthy pet. But if it means pain for the dog and possibly need to put him down later then I can understand.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
I wonder if he's knuckling over in the front? That's the only thing I can think of with her saying he's crooked and cutting back on his food. Knuckling is one of the reasons giant breed puppies shouldn't be fed puppy food, however it is correctable if caught early. Hope you find some answers and your pup is able to join you soon!
 

NC_Mastiff_Mom

Active Member
Skilly, check out this site:
greatdanelady.com
go to "articles" on left and then scroll down to "Knuckling and bowing puppy legs"
The great dane lady has a lot of usefull information about giant breed dogs! Many swear by her "fixes" too.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a good outcome!
 

Skilly

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies, I spoke to the breeder again tonight and she told me that yes it was his legs, and she was also directed to greatdanelady's article. She has changed his diet and amazingly after 9 days things are turning around. She couldn't believe she was having this issue as she has always fed a good quality food with low protein. She had cut back the food for three days before switching diets and the problem didn't worsen but after the diet switch things improved! :)

I am now waiting out the next 2 weeks to see what happens as she won't sell him to me if it isn't fixed. It's strange how only 2 of the puppies were effected. His siblings have started to go to their new homes this week.

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------

Oh I forgot to add, because we are in Australia she can't get many of the supplements recommended due to our strict quarantine laws, but has him on eagle pack now. This is the same food my cat breeder (I have a 1yr old Cornish Rex) recommended and is fairly new to Australia.
 

Skilly

Well-Known Member
Oh I forgot to add, because we are in Australia she can't get many of the supplements recommended due to our strict quarantine laws, but has him on eagle pack now. This is the same food my cat breeder (I have a 1yr old Cornish Rex) recommended and is fairly new to Australia.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
Protein isn't as much of a concern as the ratio of calcium to phosphorus although foods with higher protein do tend to have a higher ratio. I hope everything works out. Keep us posted!
 

Skilly

Well-Known Member
blue6.jpg

Just thought I would add a pic of him at 6 weeks (I need to ask for some recent ones as he is now 9 weeks). The problem became evident at 7w, so looking at the photos I had no idea what the problem was. Is it likely that it could come back if/when I get him? What is a good ratio? I will probably continue with him on the diet she has him on for now but would really like to move to a raw food diet as soon as it's safe. Eagle pack is a fairly natural diet as far as kibble fioods go, but I have done a fair bit of research into the Billinghurst diet and feel that is more beneficial to the dog.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
I'm not too familiar with the Billinghurst diet but while Eagle Pack is the only food with a giant breed puppy formula, it isn't the best. It's pretty much a so so food and that's coming from a friend in another forum who is a dog nutritionist. I love raw food diets and really wish we could do it full time for our dogs so if you can do it, then awesome! We do it occasionally when we are able with an egg here, some chicken there, beef, etc. Just make sure you don't feed raw and kibble in the same meal as they digest at different rates. If you can find the thread I started about the Whole Dog Journal 2011 Food List, there's a list of awesome foods, including which ones are appropriate for growing giant breed puppies.This is pulled directly from the dog nutritionist when someone asked about the appropriate calcium level for giant breed pups "Calcium to phosphorous ratios should be 1.2:1 and max calcium for giant breed pups under a year of age should be no more than 1.4 to 1.6%."

---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 AM ----------

Oh and the knuckling can come back without proper diet but it can also be completely resolved in most cases with proper diet. I hope it all works out for you :)
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
Oh and the knuckling can come back without proper diet but it can also be completely resolved in most cases with proper diet. I hope it all works out for you :)
 

Skilly

Well-Known Member
Yay! Our puppy has been given the all clear and now it is time to make arrangements for his travel. :D

I must admit I am perhaps a little more cautious now about going over to raw food as I am scared of mucking it all up and bringing back the problem. But I do think it is best for the dog in the long run if I can do it right.

Here, Eagle Pack is classed as a premium food - we don't have nearly the same choice as in other countries. I feed my cat Hills Science Diet which is sold and recommended by just about every vet for both dogs and cats, but my cta breeder prefers Eagle Pack over Hills and now the dog breeder has found it to help with the knuckling over so it is working. I am soooo glad he doesn't have to get put down. The vet said he may never have perfectly straight legs. I would like to see what a raw diet can do for him, but will be treading very carefully! It is so difficult to know that you are giving the right amounts and balance of nutrients when it isn't all measured out and combined into a comercial dried food.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
Unfortunately, Science Diet is recommended by so many vets because that's what they are taught in vet school and a lot of the veterinary programs are actually funded by Hills. Eagle Pack isn't an awful food by any means and when you have limited options it's hard. I'm so glad things worked out with your pup and hope they continue to do so.

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------

Also there are some great resources regarding raw out there. You just have to know where to look for them!
 

Skilly

Well-Known Member
I did some research on my lunch break and Eagle pack was the only dry dog food that passed the criteria of greatdanelady's recommendations for fat/protein/calcium/calories for a large breed puppy. That was comparing 15 different foods that were classifies as "premium" here, including holistic select (the food the breeder was using before the switch), hills SD, Advance, Eukanuba to name a few. The holistic select was a very close second, with the only issue being lower calcium 1.1% instead of a minimum of 1.2%. So what she had them on wasn't "bad" but switching made a huge difference.

I am borrowing a book on raising puppies with RAW but I know that if I do it wrong it could be worse, not better than commercial dry food.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
Mastiffs are giant breed puppies,not large breed puppies though. That's why they need an adult food or an all life stages food. Eagle Pack is the only food that has a giant breed dog food but it's still only so so. Where do you live? Good foods for giant breed puppies include certain formulas of Taste of the Wild, certain formulas of Acana, certain formulas of Innova, certain formulas of Orijen, and that's just to name a few. This is all coming from a dog nutritionist by the way who herself has a mastiff and a bernese mountain dog and tests each food before recommending it to her clients.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
There are ways to get these foods in Australia.
http://wtb.naturapet.com/international_retailers/australia
http://www.bowhouse.com.au/c/423014...evo-innova-california-natural-healthwise.html
I've been told by my friend who's a dog nutritionist and who herself lives in Spain and handles clients all over that Orijen and Acana are widely available in Australia. Also she said the following when I asked about good books about raw ''Dr Tom Lonsdale, DVM is the Australian veterinarian that helped shed light on the raw diet and dental health in dogs - his book Raw Meaty Bones is full of technical stuff that is mainly of interest to people in the nutrition field like myself, but his second book, Work Wonders, is geared for the pet owner, with a how-to included. Also Monica Segal's book K9 Kitchen is good. ''
Also dogfoodanalysis.com is a good site to see the ratings of different dog foods. Ideally you want a food that is 5 or 6 stars but at least a 4 is okay.
 

Skilly

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info, I will check them out. I am in South Australia and we are pretty limited here, but if I can find them interstate I should be able to get them. I had a long chat with my breeder tonight as we were arranging his flight and I was surprised to hear that he was on a raw diet when the condition became apparent. She was feeding vets all natural meal base with a variety of human grade raw meats. http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/

The only thing that we can think of is that she got a bad batch, which normally wouldn't show up on an older dog but as my pup was growing so rapidly, he was effected. The vet said he had a calcium deficiency which would usually be a problem of too much calcium with most commercial dry foods.

I am currently reading a book by billinghurst on growing pups with raw meat and bones (his second book), on loan to me from a work colleague. Ideally I'd like to have him on a raw diet but the fact this happened whilst he was on one scares me a bit. The vet is happy with the improvement but said he could regress if the diet isn't the right nutrient balance. With raw that is much harder to manage.
 

Skilly

Well-Known Member
... when I asked about good books about raw ''Dr Tom Lonsdale, DVM is the Australian veterinarian that helped shed light on the raw diet and dental health in dogs - his book Raw Meaty Bones is full of technical stuff that is mainly of interest to people in the nutrition field like myself, but his second book, Work Wonders, is geared for the pet owner, with a how-to included. Also Monica Segal's book K9 Kitchen is good. ''

I also wanted to thank you for this bit of info - I had not heard of Dr Lonsdale, my colleague often discusses Billinghurst's ideas which, according to Lonsdale, have moved away slightly from the original Raw Meat and Bones diet. I found his website last night and also downloaded the book "Work Wonders..." after reading some of the articles on his website.

When I got my Cornish Rex cat about two years ago, after losing my Siamese to cancer at only 9yrs old (they could live to nearly double that), my colleague had introduced me to Raw feeding then, and it just made so much more sense to me. I wondered would I have lost my Siamese to cancer had I fed him a raw diet, and decided I would do things this way from teh very start. My Cornish kitten Milo, took well to the raw diet and was very active and playful. Unfortunately he was a ticking time bomb from the minute I got him and had to be put to sleep at 8 months old, regardless of what I had fed him. He had been exposed to a virus at around 2-4w as most cats are through their mother, but this mutated into feline peritonitis which is incurable.

So when his breeder gave me another kitten a year ago, I decided to try again with raw. She didn't take to it that well, and is not nearly as easy going as he was. She starved herself (refused to eat the raw food no matter what I tried) and would bite me and wake me in the middle of the night to get me to top up her bowl with Hills Science Diet, which I had as I was trying to wean her off it onto raw and doing it gradually to avoid gut reactions. I took her to a vet and asked how I could get her to eat raw and his response was "Look, it's much easier and more convenient to feed a good quality dry food like Hills. It doesn't go off, it doesn't smell, it can stay there all day and she can graze and quite frankly the good foods we have available today make it not worth the effort to go any other way." I was dissappointed by this response as I was after advice to get her to change and I believed that raw feeding had a lot of benefits to offer. Honestly, he gave me a license to give up. And I did.

I still offer raw foods when I am cutting them up for dinner if she asks for some, and as she over eats on the dry food, she only gets it once a day, just before I go to bed (so she doesn't wake me at 2am!) and the rest of the time has it in treat ball things that require her to be active to get it out. She just doesn't eat the raw food, often sniffs at it, licks it and walks away. I started feeding her tinned fish ever now and then and found she will eat that, but not fresh, raw meat and bones.

Last night was the first time in a long time that she has actually eaten the raw food I have offered her (it was premium quality chicken breast that I was cutting up to make cheesey chicken strips for my children). I was surprised and kept offering it until I thought she had eaten a meal's worth and I didn't feed her the dry food like normal. Lonsdale's website has some excellent tips for changing cats over, and one of them was to use tinned commercial food before switching to raw, because the texture is closer to raw. So perhaps by giving her the tinned fish, she is now more accepting of the wet feel of raw meat.

I know this is a dog forum and not a cat forum, but the information you have provided may ultimately help my cat too. I now have a few tricks up my sleeve to test out on her and another resource to draw from to ensure that when my puppy comes home next week, I am fully prepared with the knowledge I need to make good decisions on what I will feed him.

I am very new to raw feeding, having not been successful at it with my cats and know it can be much more difficult than commercial feeding but if my pets can live to their full potential then it is worth it. My rottweiler (my first and only dog I have owned) lived to 10.5, dying of a rather sudden cancer. Up until his diagniosis he was healthy, puppy-like and active, we thought he would surely live a few years longer despite people telling us that 9 or 10 is a "good" age for a large breed. While I thought I was doing the right thing by cooking up "stews" for him with pumpkins +seeds, leafy greens, potato peels, brown rice, and meat broth and feeding him raw bones regularly, and the weekly raw egg and bacon when we had them for a sunday breakfast, in addition to his dry food, I now know that there is better (and that cooking reduces the nutrient content considerably). I will never know if he could have lived longer, but if I do it from the beginning with my EM, I know I have given him the best chance. It would be nice if one of my pets could die of old age rather than cancer or some other rare and sudden disease that takes them far too soon.
 

Smart_Family

Dog Food Guru
That's so good to hear! Cats really aren't supposed to eat dry food anyways because they aren't natural water drinkers and dry food obviously has no water content. Canned or raw does have water which ends up being better for the cat. Good luck and keep me posted!