Thinking about my next breed and would likes some opinions...

[metaldad904]

I'm always obsessing about dogs, one breed to the next and while quite a few fascinate me lately I've been wanting to start narrowing down my choices to find my "perfect" next breed. I will give you the criteria i'm looking for and then some breeds i'm fond of as well as some pros and cons with each that i know of.

Criteria:
Protection-I want a true protector, a dog that I have no doubt will engage an intruder and do whatever it takes to protect my daughter and my home. I have Greta, a female CC and she puts up a big show but i am seriously doubting if she will actually be willing to engage anything (she's a giant wuss about EVERYTHING).

Tolerance of other animals-I already have a female CC, female APBT and female Shorkie so would need one that is capable of being trusted with the rest of the fur family.

Ability to identify true threat vs non-threat-It is not atypical for family members to stop by unannounced, especially my grandparents plus when i purchase my new home (hopefully in these next few months) my father will probably be stopping by a lot to help me while i'm at work and keep my pups happy.

Size-I want something big, and when i say big i mean biiiiiig. Greta is about 110 lbs and i'd like my next one to push close to 200 if not over if possible. I love big dogs and nothing would make me happier than having a true giant.

Appearance-This seems shallow but that's life, dogs that catch my eye are the start of my obsessions usually. For example, not really a huge fan of Fila's just b/c to me...they look like oversized bloodhounds, just my opinion haha.

Breeds that have caught my eye and have considered with some pro's and cons:

Caucasian Ovcharka-I have been doing a huge amount of research into this breed, they intrigue me so much its insane. Pros-Protection instinct is very high, extremely large, intelligent. Cons-Protection instinct may be too high in some ways, it seems like they may be overly defensive at times but that could be exaggerated. Fuzziness, while its cute i'm not sure how keen i am about the amount of hair they have. Health, i've heard a lot about health problems with'em.

Neo-A well bred Neo is just breathtaking to me, i can't get over how beautiful they are. Pros-Enormous. Supposedly quite good protectors, laid back for the most part. Cons-Not very athletic, lots of potential health problems.

Tosa Inu-I confess i don't know all that much about this breed but something about them peaks my interest. Pros-Big, protection is high, athletic. Cons-I have seen very few outside of the standard brown or fawn type of coloration and frankly, that's my least favorite color. I like black, blue or brindle typically in dogs. Dog aggression, i have read a lot about them being difficult to keep with other pets which could always be untrue thus why i'm posting to get more truth on matters.

Tibetan Mastiff-They are quite magnificent. Pros and Cons are similar to the CO but they don't seem "quite" as stranger aggressive.

Boerbel-I don't know much about them, not as much information i can find that really helps me, i just like their look a lot. Don't have a pro/con list b/c i don't have enough information as of yet.

Giant Alaskan Marmalute-I honestly didn't know they existed until about a month ago and stumbled across someone who told me and i ran to the internet. I always liked the normal breed but just weren't all that big imo. I won't bother with a pros and cons just b/c I'm still trying to figure out if they are all that much different from a normal one other than size. My one big complaint is Malamutes aren't really known for protection.

There's my list and please, if you have any suggestions for other breeds feel free, just what i can think of at the moment that has been high on my list. Nothing i'm said is etched in stone, just based on things i've read and what others have said that have owned them and i know every dog is different.

Also, lemme give you a big of my life. I'm 29 years old, 3 dogs as you already know and a pre-teen daughter. I will be buying my own house within the next few months, looking for something hopefully a little outside of a town but possible in town. I'm in Southwestern Michigan near the Indiana border. No big cities, the house would have a good sized privacy fence and i am adamant about all my dogs being in the house. I eventually plan on getting a couple pygmy goats, chickens and maybe some other things which is partly why i would like something that knows how to protect. I work between 40-50 hours a week but make sure i spend quite a bit of a quality time with my pack, daily long walks and on off days we like to go hiking and any other fun activity we can think of. Anything else just ask.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Some of th medium to softer tempered TM's may fit your criteria, though I don't think they'd allow anyone into the house without your permission.

Grooming:most of the year a once a week brush with maybe twice a week for britches/tail. TM's only shed once a year, they blow their coat every spring. Daily brushing required for this period which can last for a couple months. I bathe Apollo once every 3-4months or so, that coat sheds damn near EVERYTHING.

I will note that while your CC experience is a good thing TM's aren't going to handle quite like any of the rest of your dogs (same for CO's).

They don't usually hit 200lbs, though Apollo's brother is going to come pretty close. Apollo,will probly be 140ish, all that fluff gives a very false impression of their bulk. Health problems wise: in general TMs are very healthy, but with every breed you have your less than steller breeders, so do your research (I'd be delighted to help if you want).

 

[ruthcatrin]

Oh, livestock. In general TM's do well with livestock, however there are many reports of TM's who have been properly raised and trained and socialized with birds.....going after birds. I don,t know any of these dogs personally, but it seems to be a common theme.

And you'd probly need to get a male TM as they can have issues with same sex agression, especially with other large dogs. Its not a hard and fast rule, but again its common.

 

[ravendarat]

I can chime in on the Neo as my EX has one that I have spent a lot of time with. She is lazy but don't kid yourself, when she needs to close distance to protect she can without a problem or hesitation. She is a big softy around the family though, she lives with an american bulldog and a min pin and I have never seen her start a fight, although she has finished one a couple times when the ABD decided to get out of line. Size wise though I don't think they are gonna push the 200 lb mark. I think they are generally more in the 130-150 lb range but they are still good size dogs. If your a neat person though they arent the dog for you, as with most of our dogs on this forum, THEY DROOL and drool lots and often lol. Health problems are definitely a concern as they are one of the most expensive dogs I have found to get pet insurance for, and those premiums are not just picked out of the air imo.

 

[Smokeycat]

The only one of the breeds I have any experience with on your list is the giant malamute. Zeus is almost 5 now and he is all bark, when he does decide something is worth the effort, with no attempt to back it up. As far as I have been able to tell he is nothing like a standard malamute other than the general appearance.

This was taken a couple of months ago. He is a large giant malamute at 140 lbs and 28" tall, do he wouldn't be much bigger than your CC.

 

[metaldad904]

I will note that while your CC experience is a good thing TM's aren't going to handle quite like any of the rest of your dogs (same for CO's).

They don't usually hit 200lbs, though Apollo's brother is going to come pretty close. Apollo,will probly be 140ish, all that fluff gives a very false impression of their bulk. Health problems wise: in general TMs are very healthy, but with every breed you have your less than steller breeders, so do your research (I'd be delighted to help if you want).

Can you describe what you mean by the difference? I've heard a lot of this but i'd like to hear from firsthand experience what that means. I understand its a whole different world with TM's and CO's but i'd really like to know more, can never know enough.

Can you send me some good links for TM research?

thanks for your help!

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 PM ----------

The only one of the breeds I have any experience with on your list is the giant malamute. Zeus is almost 5 now and he is all bark, when he does decide something is worth the effort, with no attempt to back it up. As far as I have been able to tell he is nothing like a standard malamute other than the general appearance.

That's what i was afraid of, all bark but nothing backing it up. He's is just plain awesome looking tho!

 

[metaldad904]

The only one of the breeds I have any experience with on your list is the giant malamute. Zeus is almost 5 now and he is all bark, when he does decide something is worth the effort, with no attempt to back it up. As far as I have been able to tell he is nothing like a standard malamute other than the general appearance.

That's what i was afraid of, all bark but nothing backing it up. He's is just plain awesome looking tho!

 

[ruthcatrin]

My ipad is about to run out of battery, so I promise you a big long post tomorrow on TMs, in the mean time I suggest here: http://tibetanmastiffinfo.com/ for good TM info (the breed club is useless). Mand here: http://www.lgd.org/ though the info here isn't specific to TMs alot of what makes TMs so different is shared across the LGBs.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

When we move I plan to have a more primative breed as we will be back in the woods and I want a dog that I can leave out with the horse I hope to have (shhh don't tell Scott it is a secret) so in a few years I will be doing more research. After seeing Apollo now I can say the 3 I am looking at are CAS, TM and CO so ladies and gentleman with experience expect to be hearing from me!

For our next pet/stickly show dog as I don't plan to ever breed more than one breed I am considering a dogo or DBB but haven't decided which yet.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Oh, livestock. In general TM's do well with livestock, however there are many reports of TM's who have been properly raised and trained and socialized with birds.....going after birds. I don,t know any of these dogs personally, but it seems to be a common theme.

And you'd probly need to get a male TM as they can have issues with same sex agression, especially with other large dogs. Its not a hard and fast rule, but again its common.

Definately will require opposite sex TM. As for other criteria I can pretty much say that a TM will pretty much fit the bill if you take the time to search out the right breeder. Agree with Ruth a softer to medium tempered TM may be better suited with children and family coming and going, bearing in mind they will need to be very well socialized with regular walk-ins at your house. My in-laws can walk in to my house without knocking and my dog sitter without me being there, a few friends with me being there that know Mooshi very well and been around her from day one, after that without myself or my hubby in the house forget it, no chance! Shedding and hair loss is really no big deal and grooming is pretty easy as well. i groom on a Tuesday (I have no idea why I chose that day) and it takes me about 15 minutes to do a good top to bottom job. Mooshi's litter mate Bruce is about 33" at the shoulder and about 170 lbs and not yet done at only just over 2 years old. Definately read the link Ruth sent you.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yah, we worked with my inlaws from day one, setting up "random arrivals" for them to arrive and just walk in (we still do it occasionally) as they are our pet-sitters of choice and would potentially need to get into the house quickly if something happened putting one or both of us in the hospital. So Apollo will allow them in the house without us there. Anyone else? Not a chance. He LIKES my BIL's family, and my SIL's family ALOT, but the one time they beat us to the house when we were having a family thing he made it very clear to them that they weren't allowed in (they didn't try very hard, they all have big dogs....). And he's a fairly soft-tempered TM.

I'll do the bigger post when I get home.....but Mary, since you're looking at one specifically for working with livestock take a very good look at the LGD link I posted too. The one thing that would be different for a TM is that you'd need to make sure that dog bonded with YOU first, before bonding with the livestock, or you'll have potential BIG problems on your hands later. There are breeders in the US who use them for general property protection though, so its entirely possible!

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

With regard to protecting family I would say a TM will not hesitate. For example my husband was taking our two out for their usual morning walk, it was 5.30am so still dark. He walked around the corner and one of our neighbours, at least that’s who we think it was, came out of their driveway all dressed in black. Without warning of any kind Mooshi let out an almighty bark and lunged! My husband is 6’4 and well over 200lbs, he’s a strong guy and he only just kept hold of Mooshi. She doesn’t do it often, she is VERY well socialized but on this occasion she felt a threat and she reacted. She hates drunks as well and on a few occasions when I have walked her she will growl and bark and lunge at them, luckily I can usually see them coming so am prepared and either get away or take a firm stance and wait for them to pass while hanging on to her. Also don’t even think about putting your hands over my fence if she is in the front garden and you cant see me, you will be sorry. If Im there then you can pet her and she will probably give you a kiss if she likes you, either that or she will bark her face off at you telling you not to bother. I don’t know if you have ever heard a TM bark but she makes my male Akita sound like a little girl!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yah, Apollo makes the GSDs kitty corner across the street sound high pitched. The funny thing is they bark at him ALL THE TIME, he just stares back.....

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

WTG Apollo! Moo would bark the shingles off the roof of our house.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Its kinda funny, sometimes I wish he'd bark back, but I'm happy not to have to listen to it. On the other hand, if he's inside and hears them start up he'll head for a window to check for threats just incase. They don't like the cat from across the street either lol


Metaldad, there was a thread not to long ago, someone asking about CO's in an urban setting, Brad posted a video of one of his very nearly going over a 7ft fence. Its very impressive to watch. We have 6ft chainlink here, and although Apollo has never tried I can honestly say that I believe he COULD were something to come up. 6ft would be the miminum fence height I'd recommend with these guys, and you may need to put coyote rollers or the like on top of that.

 

[bw68]

Neo will guard and be relentless, they wont stop, they feel no pain!

 

[DMikeM]

Antolian type dog, like BOZ, Kangal or COS, CAO, TM or Caucasian. One of the flock protectors. But for me Boerboel, many places are now calling it the perfect protection dog. I know I am biased but I recently a coworker's daughter almost get raped or abducted as some prowler tried to get into her bedroom while everyone was home sleeping. We discussed dogs at length and she got a Boerboel, since then there has been a couple of events where the puppy went ballistic on something near the back fence (same place the prowler used last time). The daughter has been able to sleep in her bedroom now that she has her BB.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Ok, trying to explain what it means when they say TMs (and COs) handle differently than most dogs people are used to....(I sincerly hope the other TM owners, and LGD owners, on here will feel free to add to this with their experiences)

I call TMs "independantly intelligent", when I'm in a good mood. When its been one of "those" days Apollo becomes that "brat who's to smart and stubborn for his own good". I know, you're reading that thinking "but I've dealt with stubborn before...." but honestly the sort of stubborn you get out of a primitive, especially a primitive who's a LGD, is not comparable.

These are dogs that have been bred to guard flocks/herds, homesteads, and other property, with little or no human input on their actions. They are expected to make their own determination as to what is a threat, and what is not, and how to handle that threat, without a single command or instruction or training from a human. They cannot be distracted from that charge by food, by someone acting friendly, by prey....This all produces a highly intelligent dog, who THINKS, and REACTS, in ways that have very little to do with taught commands, or whether their owner is going to be happy with their actions or not. If we could REALLY test a dog's IQ I'd put Apollo up against any of those supposedly "highly intelligent" herding or retrieving breeds in a heart beat. As it is though he'd get bored about 5 minutes in, shred the paper and decide the instructor was a threat.....

His sister opens doors with round door knobs (vs lever handles), I've caught Apollo eyeing ours specutively....

They don't have the same food or toy drive that most dog owners are used to, its "food and treats and squeekers are cool and all, but there's something over there that I need to check out cause it might be bad, so hang onto that treat, I'll be back in a minute...." Apollo is such an extreme form of this that he will almost never accept treats or respond for treats outside of the house. He did occasionally as a pup, but the more he matures the less he's interested in being distracted by food. When we were at the show a couple weeks ago a lady and I had been talking, while she ate, about Apollo and TMs in general. She finished up and asked if she could give him the last bite of her sausage, I said sure as long as she'd wipe of the condiments. She wiped it off, and offered it. He politely took it.....and dropped it to the floor between his paws and continued to watch the surroundings. He never did eat it, I threw it away an hour later when we moved.

They aren't generally love-bugs/velcro dogs. They very rarely seek out "pet me" type attention. Apollo will ask for a scratch every now and then, usually by slamming his hips into my legs and leaning, but thats about it. A cuddle bug TM is a dog who'll sleep briefly on your feet, or curl up on the opposite end of the couch you're sitting on. Apollo's a bit more velcro-ish than most due to having been bottle fed as a pup, but even with that I can't decide if he's really "velcro" or if he's just that OCD about the fact that he can't guard us when he can't see us.

These aren't off leash dogs. The rare exception to the rule: I know Mooshi's Mummy occasionally takes Mooshi to fields where she can run off leash, but even then I bet she'd NEVER seriously consider allowing her off leash walking down the road at home. I saw a joke once: a TM will stay close to you, assuming you consider close to be a few blocks over....They WILL follow their instincts to check out something that might be interesting or a threat, and when they do that all sense of "come!" goes right out the window. We DO continue to work with Apollo on such skills, but I don't expect to have a dog who takes them seriously, I just hope that if it ever comes down to it maybe the constant practice will make him hesitate just that extra fraction of a second so I have a chance to catch up to him.....

They tend to be more subtle in their body language. For example Apollo's signals that he's had enough are MUCH harder for the average person to read. You'll find yourself an expert on doggy body language cause after learning out to read your TM it'll feel like every other dog is yelling at you....I was talking to a experienced handler at the show (Josee's handler). He's handled CCs, and TMs, and I don't know what else. He said the TMs are the hardest to predict and anticipate in alot of ways, and if I hadn't raised Apollo from a 10week old pup I'd totally agree.

And he WILL NOT show pain or discomfort infront of a stranger. Last spring he caught kennel cough. He was coughing and hacking up flem, he couldn't sleep without waking up constantly to cough, and was even acting like he might be having trouble breathing. He was miserable. Took him to the vets. From the time we got out of the car, to the time we got back into the car an hour later: not one cough. Not one hack. Not one gasping breath. I don't know how he did it, I've had colds like that and if I need to cough there's not much that I can do about it. But he did it.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

OK another TM owner here, this time a bitch rather than a dog such as Apollo. 1000000000% agree with EVERYTHING Ruth has just said about the TM.

Independent and intelligent thinkers is spot on. These dogs have been around for 1000's of years and raised for one purpose and this is to guard, without the need to have humans tell them what to do or train them to do their job, it comes naturally and you can NOT train it out of them. They are a primitive breed, probably one of the most primitive breeds you will come across and through history are known to be the original and oldest mastiff breed, your OEM, BM and DDB for example come from the TM. In Tibet they are left to their own devices and do what is expected of them and what comes naturally to them without training. Stubborn is a word used with a TM but I think it goes beyond that, they honestly think they know their job better than we do and because they take it so seriously they simply ignore what we think is better.

As for being smart...Ive never known a dog so easy to train in all my life. By day 2 of bringing Moo home at 8 weeks of age she was already knocking at the door to go out and go potty. I did not have to teach her this, she watched me open the door and figured out how to get what she needed. I did not have to teach her to heal, she watched my Akita, stayed with our pace and naturally walked to heal. You can teach them 'tricks'. Mooshi knows her left from right. Sit, down, stay, wait, leave etc but these are games to her and does them because she wants a treat from me and gets praise from me. TM's thrive on positive praise, you can NOT be harsh with a TM. Firm yes but harsh not, they will shut down and it will make them turn in on themselves. You do not want this with a TM. Everything must be positive with them if you want them to listen to and respect you. Moo is a certified Good Citizen, a UK KC obedience award but it was hard slog getting it. You can ask a TM to recall from a distance once or twice, they will do it at their own pace but done expect them to be excited about it or run to you...they will get there in their own time and then sigh...I did what you asked mummy but it was boring.

Yeah Moo is an off lead dog when we go to woods and fields, when it is safe to do so and there is no chance of her getting in to trouble or danger. I worked HARD on her recall, damn hard but its still 95% at best. If there is something that requires her attention at the time I call her she will most likely investigate it first and then follow...but she will follow. I consider myself lucky and unusual to have a TM with such good recall. I know other owners who never let their TM off lead for fear of them not coming when called. Some because they are afraid to try, some haven’t the time to work on it, some have aggressive TM's. I can understand all these reasons because they are very real. But a TM can be an off lead dog, in a safe place but NEVER, NEVER, NEVER on the streets or roads. It would only take one small threat or interest on the other side of the road and you have a dead TM.

Body language is difficult at best. You are lucky if you get a turned or dropped head. You wont see hackles and rarely curled lips. You may feel a tension and stillness before a vibration and then a deep growl, pay attention to this because without this knowledge and paying attention you will have trouble in seconds. It soon goes from this vibration to an attack. This is done without any fear whatsoever and your TM will not be the one to back down. TM's will not stand for dogs that are sending negative vibes either, even from across the road! Said dog may not be barking or snarling and may be 50ft away but your TM will pick up on it and will most likely want to protect you before that dog has even had a chance to get within 10ft of you. No questions asked. No signs, no nothing. If the dog is off kilter at TM will most likely react and react naturally by getting in there first, they will never back down.

A TM must never be treated harshly. They will recoil and not respect you. You must, absolutely must always be firm but positive with your TM. You can not yell at or hit your TM. All training must be done with praise and positive reward, they thrive on this. They will not respond to harshness at all, instead you will find an already aloof dog even more distant and unwilling to do your bidding. Treat them with praise and reward and you will find a TM who is willing to accept you and your commands and respect them, sometimes even if their natural instincts tell them otherwise because they have that close, rare and invaluable bond with you that is not obvious to anyone other than you if you take the time to see it for what it is.

Mooshi will not go through a door before me. If my husband and I get both dogs ready to go out and he shouts 'collars' Bear my Akita will run to who ever is offering a walk. If I am however in another room putting my shoes on Mooshi will not go and get ready until I say OK and tell her to go get her collar on. Once its on if I am still in another room she will come back and wait for me, watching for me to say ok. Then she will move back for me to exit first through each door. When we get to the gate and I tell her to wait she stops immediately. Why? Because of respect, which is of the utmost importance. I trained her with the utmost kindness and respect. I feed her. I groom her. She is mine. But I am firm with her and stand for no crap! My Akita is anybody's who loves him, but Mooshi doesnt need that from anyone but me. Cuddles are not the norm so if you need a lap dog then look beyond a TM. They dont need cuddles, us humans need them for our own satisfaction and i am lucky that my Akita is a love bug but Mooshi doesnt need to be stroked and fussed over. Last night I enjoyed a rare moment where she got on the sofa next to me and put her head on my lap and went to sleep with me holding her, trust me this is not the norm. She does however love me grooming her and will fall asleep with me brushing her and be completely putty in my hands. This is our special time and I have had to learn to accept her distance as a natural trait rather than a shun. She also doesnt do toys, play or fetch, which would be considered usual activities or interests for normal dogs, a TM will happily destroy a toy but dont ask it to chase or fetch, its not the norm.

Finally I guess this is a personal choice but I would NOT look at the TM's they breed in China, they are not the true TM. They are bred for looks and money, the bigger the better with these lion style heads. This is NOT the real TM from Tibet. If you look at ancient photos of true TM's you will find dogs that look like Apollo and Mooshi, not some inbred dog that looks like a Chow on steroids.

I could go on forever about the TM. They are amazing and a real learning experience. If you think you have read up on and are educated on a TM I can tell you now you know very little until owning and experiencing this ancient and majestic breed for real. They constantly amaze and wow you. Nothing can really prepare you but you wont be sorry with one, not ever.​

 

[ruthcatrin]

Oh gosh, potty training. We got Apollo at 10weeks on the dot. He WAS ASKING TO GO OUT within 24hrs. Yah, he had accidents occasionally for a while, most of them were our fault for not paying attention. I've never seen a dog potty train so fast....


And speaking of Apollo's sister, the lady who owns her, her other TM can pick numbers off of number cards on command....