Prong collars

[DennasMom]

My thoughts:

1. dogs can be collar-smart
2. people can be lazy (i.e. if he's good with a prong on... job done... no more training 'required')

3. police dogs and their handlers don't fall under either of the above, and wearing a prong on the job could be dangerous to the dog - imagine if the dog scaled a chain link fence after a suspect and caught the collar on the top as he dropped to the ground. He could hang himself. Not good.

4. I've also used prongs as a tool, and tried to graduate my dogs off them. Only one dog out of 4 actually needed it, and when he wore it he was a nicer, more calm and happier dog (we got him when he was 1yr old, so he had some 'issues'). He remained mostly collar smart (or was that just flat-collar stupid?)

5. distractions happen... I try to anticipate things - like the squirrel I see before Denna does, getting ready to zip across the road in front of us - and I can keep Denna from reacting badly. So far, so good.

6. people see dogs with prongs (or choke chains) and think "big scary mean dog"... so I avoid using one with Denna (she hated it the one time I put one on her, so, there's that, too). She does great with a simple nylon slip lead - and even that gives me more "Oh S#!t" control than a her flat collar.

7. Denna's not an uber-protector (she's more socialite), so I can see why a more independent-thinker-guardian would need a "louder" collar in certain circumstances (such as alley ways in NYC).

 

[danielleconn]

So here is my story on using a prong...Zoe as a small pup wouldn't walk on a leash, she sat her butt on the ground and wouldn't budge. We began using an easy walk harness and tugged and encouraged her along, she soon learned to walk as we did on leash. Well easy walk began rubbing her arm pits raw so we then transitioned to a freedom harness. As Zoe got older her leash excitement/reactivity increased. So we began giving treats immediately once she targeted her excitement & soon we were able to heal past the exciting target. After that passed she began to have a constant tension on leash & wanted to sniff & smell the world. I knew at this point we either needed a halti/head harness or prong. I chose prong because Zoe is very sensitive to putting on a collar or having anything something placed over her head & I felt as the head harness for her would be more aversive than a prong. That being said, when I bought the prong I immediately placed it on my naked thigh and yanked it a few times & it didn't hurt. So I felt okay about using it. With it properly fitted, I never corrected her myself often, she learned to not have constant pressure on her leash on her own. It has been 4-5 months that we have used it & actually switch back and forth between her flat & prong. I only use the prong going to the pet store or a busy park but it's more to remind her to listen to me when I say "lets go". She doesn't react to dogs, cats, kids, or other critters much anymore until she knows we are going to say hello. But prong or flat she equally gets excited. So I would imagine we won't need it much more as most issues we utilize a positive approach even with her prong, she seems to understand more than with just a correction, but this could also be because it was our way for 20 months before we utilized a prong collar.

 

[gilles]

i use flat collar now when i walk volka but also he has a prong on . i switch to the prong when the situation calls for it, or when he starts becoming difficult, i doubt that the prong hurts him as he grew up it barely makes him uncomfortable but still he is sensitive to it and becomes much more responsive when needed.

 

[Smokeycat]

6. people see dogs with prongs (or choke chains) and think "big scary mean dog"... so I avoid using one with Denna (she hated it the one time I put one on her, so, there's that, too). She does great with a simple nylon slip lead - and even that gives me more "Oh S#!t" control than a her flat collar.
/QUOTE]

I've actually had the opposite reaction from people. The majority that realize that I've got a prong collar on him think it's a smart idea. Maybe it's because I do describe it like power steering or power brakes. Kryten is clearly much more powerful than I am and the prong collar evens the odds a bit if there was an occasion that I had to physically control him. Even if it is more a psychological than actual evening of those odds.

 

[season]

"People see dogs with prongs and think 'big scary mean dog'"....
I say who cares. I'm not in charge with what ppl think. I know ppl see Solo and me out and about and they think "what a well behaved, calm dog."


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Boxergirl]

Thanks again for the replies. It seems that you guys are different than what I've become accustomed to seeing. Your older dogs can behave on a regular collar, but you choose to continue to use a prong because, if I understand correctly, you like the control it gives if an unforeseen instance arises. I totally get that. I'm used to seeing dogs with owners who are using the collars for management only and the training never happens, so if the prong isn't handy they have an uncontrollable dog. FWIW, the facility that trains our police dogs offers classes for family dogs as well. They use prongs but the goal is to transition away from them. That's why police dogs came to mind.

If your dog is to the point where correction is no longer necessary then the prong should offer no more aversion, without tension from pulling or a correction pop it should offer no discomfort to the dog

This I actually don't agree with 100%. Only because if a prong is fitted properly it's tight and high behind the ears. Tight enough that it stays in position without leash pressure. That, in and of itself, is at least mildly uncomfortable. In my opinion. At least a little more than a flat collar. The same goes for a head harness. Fitted properly it's tight and high behind the ears. By my definition that makes both of them aversive in nature. I try to go for a least intrusive, minimally aversive way of training. For me, I will transition away from certain tools if possible. Everyone should do what works for their own dog.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

I used to use prong collars. I learned to be a better trainer and now I don't use one. If you use a prong collar and rely on it it shows up your inadequacies as a trainer. I didn't want to hurt my dog in order to train her so I learned a better way. I'm not saying any of these remarks to be contentious or to troll but that's the reality of the matter.

Good environmental management to prevent unwanted behaviour, reinforcing the behaviours you want with positive reinforcement and compassion for your animal will get you more results than a prong collar. Yes, its a tool, but it's a tool whose whole purpose to to inflict pain or discomfort in order to change behaviour. Anyone who tells you the prong collar doesn't work by being an aversive has zero clue what they're talking about. If you're going to use one, at least be honest with yourself and your dog about how it works.

 

[Boxergirl]

I think many people aren't willing to wait for other methods of training to work. Because they honestly do take longer. Not necessarily the people here, but many people are looking for a quick solution. The prong, in my experience and opinion, is a quick fix for a problem,but not necessarily a permanent fix without the right training to accompany it. Positive methods take longer, but I think the behavior learned is more reliable. My honest opinion is that if I still feel the need to have a prong collar (head halter, whatever) on my dog "just in case" then my dog hasn't really learned the behavior I was trying to teach and I should do a little more work. Again, that's just my opinion and how I work with my dogs.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Some good pints Boxergirl but the myth of "positive training takes longer" is as prevalent as "prong collars don't hurt".

Positive training works quickly and well with long lasting effects and no fallout if done properly. It's just a case of whether the trainer is motivated and intelligent enough to learn how to do it and implement it.

 

[gilles]

i agree that avoiding prongs and using positive training only will lead to longer lasting results and dennasmom has some good points , dogs can be collar smart ...however sometimes i think you fall in some very stubborn and independent dog and you have no choice...i tried everything with volka , he is not even interested in treats, or if he is it works few times...he is very independent and not food oriented..walking him was a tremendous exercise and effort..the prong helped a lot ..i used a prong with rounded edges ....now i dont use it anymore but its always with me in case i need it since he is much stronger and pretty wild at night with the smell of all kinds of wild animals around. he is a CAO and comparing him with my friends dogs..he is an extreme dog when it comes to protectiveness and guarding and his hatred to wild animals such as jackals and hyenas is such that he is unstoppable (even with prong) no matter how obedient and sweet he is in normal situations.

 

[Boxergirl]

Some good pints Boxergirl but the myth of "positive training takes longer" is as prevalent as "prong collars don't hurt".

Positive training works quickly and well with long lasting effects and no fallout if done properly. It's just a case of whether the trainer is motivated and intelligent enough to learn how to do it and implement it.

Oh, I absolutely think positive training provides results that are long lasting and without fallout. But I also think that to the majority of people the prong appears to work quicker. Simply because it is a physical correction that will often stop a behavior with one correction. Not permanently stop, not without training to go with it, but I've been in classes in the past where the trainer would take an unruly walker and put him on a prong and with one correction the dog stopped pulling - at that moment. People were astounded and amazed and clamored to purchase a prong. So yes, I'm sure you are right that it's a myth that positive takes longer, but that initial interruption of a behavior can look pretty amazing to someone that doesn't know much about various methods of training. I think a lot of people don't understand how positive training works and they want to see that immediate reaction or interruption of a behavior that a correction with a prong (or choke, whatever) can provide. I think that to someone that has never been exposed to positive methods it appears we're just messing around and letting the dog get away with stuff. People want to see action being taken and most humans are wired for corrections. That's what I should have said. That positive may appear to take longer because I think most of the general population want to see that immediate interruption that a physical correction can give - and then they're sold on that idea. Don't forget how much explaining was done on the Great Dane thread and how many misconceptions there were about the click being a correction. Again, just what I've seen and think.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Absolutely. And coupled with the "prong collars don't hurt" garbage it's not wonder uneducated owners get seduced by it.

What gets me is the morons who recommend them for a tonne or training issues as their first suggestion. These people show how little they really know about learning and teaching.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Glasglow, watch the name calling. You have your opinion and that is fine but assuming yours is the only way is as small minded as those you like to call down for using them. Agree to disagree and move on. There are no cookie cutter ways to train dogs.

 

[maryl]

Very well said Blackshadow, and so true.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Apologies, I forgot some were sensitive. Yes, positive reinforcement and good environmental management works on nearly all dogs and no, some of you on here don;t happen to have the ones where it doesn't but we'll agree to differ on that too.

 

[CeeCee]

I think in conversations about dog training, the average dog owner gets confused or makes decisions about training tools because they are used in conjunction with specific Operant Conditioning terms. I like to assess the tools I used based on two factors (1) if needed, does the tool allow me to safely manage a dog while they are learning and (2) does the tool allow me to give the dog information about what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior. For example, a muzzle (to me) is only a management tool - it does not give the dog any information. Whereas a prong collar or an EZ walk harness give information. They give it in the form of adding information that are, theoretically, supposed to decrease the chances of the behavior occurring. I believe that each dog will tell you how much information they need in any given situation. The amount of information a dog needs will be based on the individual dog, the environment, and ,yes, the handler's skill set. Because of this, there is no ONE right tool for every dog and handler.

I don't know that the average dog owner is thinking about training tools in these terms. Instead they hear terms like "positive, "negative," "punishment," and "reward." NONE of these words reflect how an action is PERCEIVED or EXPERIENCED by the recipient i.e., whether the experience was enjoyable/pleasurable or unenjoyable/unpleasureable. EACH dog needs to tell us that!

As many will know, but some will not, when trainers use the terms "positive" and "negative" they are referring to specific terms in Operant Conditioning. The terms "positive" and "negative" have NOTHING to do with enjoyable or unenjoyable. They ONLY refer to whether something was added (positive) or subtracted (negative) from the situation. The terms "reinforcement" and "punishment" ONLY refer to does the thing that was added or subtracted increase the chances of the behavior being repeated or strengthened? If it does, then it is considered a "reinforcement". If it does not, then it is considered a "punishment." Again none of these terms reflect the perception of the dog!

Both the EZ Walk and the Prong would be considered positive punishment. They both add (positive) something that, theoretically, decrease the likelihood the behavior will reoccur (punishment). (When the dog gets out of position, the EZ Walk presses their shoulders together causing an "uncomfortable" sensation.) When used properly, both, will put the dog in control of the amount of information they receive and then making the decision whether or not the "pain is worth the reward." This leaves us with the following questions:

1) How much information does my dog need in a given situation?
2) Is the handler and experienced handler that has a large "bag of tricks" on which to call on?
3) What kind of environment are we working in i.e., can I create space for my dog or can I reduce the distractions?

In all fairness, you can add to these questions 4) How much time and patience do I have to work with my dogs on these and 5) What are the potential consequences to my dog or to myself if we are not able to successful manage and/or teach my dog? (As someone who works with shelter dogs, these are very real questions that need to be considered.)

To me, this is where the conversation on what tool is used with which dog needs to begin.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

I'd also add the following question the your answer Ceecee

Q. Is there a chance my dog will associate the stimulus am giving (either good or bad as far as the dog is concerned) with me and is it likely to effect future behaviour?

That is, will the dog associate the prong correction with his behaviour (lunging at the dog for example), with the dog (in which case we are potentially training a pressure cooker), or with me (the relationship can break down, the dog is doing it because I am forcing him, not because I am teaching him).

Classical conditioning (learning by association) is always, always taking place.

 

[CeeCee]

I agree those questions also needed to be asked for any tool that is used. In my opinion, if the answer is yes, then that may not be the right tool for the handler - not because the tool is inherantly bad, but becasue the handler needs to increase their skills.

I'd also following question the your answer Ceecee

Q. Is there a chance my dog will associate the stimulus am giving (either good or bad as far as the dog is concerned) with me and is it likely to effect future behaviour?

That is, will the dog associate the prong correction with his behaviour (lunging at the dog for example), with the dog (in which case we are potentially training a pressure cooker), or with me (the relationship can break down, the dog is doing it because I am forcing him, not because I am teaching him).

Classical conditioning (learning by association) is always, always taking place.

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that too.

 

[karennj]

I had tried both a prong and a head halter on Bear because he is so big and he got really excited (kangaroo jumping/lunging/barking) when he saw kids, dogs, bikes, etc). Both the prong and head halter gave me instant results. What it also gave me was a dog that basically had his spirit broken. He was so miserable looking walking in perfect heel with his head hung low. I decided then it was not for us. I started working with him on heel using only my voice on my property. I then added a very loose slip collar and did the same on our street. Then I moved up to more busy areas. Last night in fact I took him to a mini city type environment with lots of people, sidewalk dinning and dogs. I try to keep the leash basically hanging and rely on my voice. At times Bear sees a dog and wants to pull towards them but I try to head him off before he gets too focused and get his focus back on me. My goal is to walk through NYC the same way and he is almost there. This in addition to desensitizing him to things that really excite him has been working for us.