On-off food argession and horrible table manners

[krisx]

i had astor since he was 7weeks, he's 4months now. he was always a difficult child, lol.
first week i got him, he growled over food while eating. i was shocked. next time he growled louder. so i snapped out of my hurt/shock and corrected him, took the food away. gave back later. he was fine for some time.

i started holding the bowl while he is eating, because i wanted it to stop and to make him used to me being around food. he always had horrible eating manners. while he still didn't know any commands he knocked the bowl out of my hands and spilled water all over us...several times. he eats all stiff body, gulping huge chunks of food. before feeding he is so worked up that he whines&squeals like he's dying of starvation...i don't know how to make him calm down to eat in peace! while we were beginning obedience he was so fixated on treats that he couldn't concentrate on my commands. just wanted to take food from me... this is 100 better now

then a month goes by. all good. learned a few commands. now we do Nilf, he sits and waits till i say ok.

and then he growls again, over food, over bone, over f*** milk. so i get really hurt and correct him if he's growling and take it away. again all good for some time.

and now 2weeks before he growls again. this time i waste no time, correct immediately.
then i did a lot of reading about resource guarding, food aggression to pick up some techniques.


so now we do it like this:
-nilf for everything (sit or something similar for toy, treat, food, opening doors, stairs, affection...)
-obedience every day, a walk every day.
-started handfeeding (several times he nipped me on fingers while taking food from my hand. i tap him on muzzle, say no. if he does it again, tap
harder, he gets the picture) but still he sometimes forgets himself, so i tap.
-first i eat, then he sit&stay, we wait to stop crying&whining-dying-from-starvation-drama show, then i hand feed.
-i feed raw, so if he gets a bone i put him on towel. several times i say 'drop it'. if he drops it, he gets praise&treat. if not a correction.
he doesn't growl anymore. if he growled it would be a correction and take the bone away.

i am asking for your advice on what i am doing and would like to hear if you have a suggestion on what else i could do to make it alright.
i wish he would chill already so we could live in peace... i plan handfeeding for now. what do you think is reasonable time to expect to fix this? don't have that little butcher axe so i have to cut chicken backs and stuff into hand feed-able chunks with ordinary kitchen knife. uuuggh!

ps. today my little problem child swallowed a piece of pig's feet instead of dropping it. so angry sometimes...

 

[musicdeb]

Astor is resource guarding, afraid you're going to take his food away. Taking away his food shows him that you ARE going to take away his food.

Titan had this behavior when I first got him. It took 4-5 months to resolve the behavior.

It takes a lot of patience and not allowing the dog to get you angry or frustrated. He's doing what he feels he needs to do to keep his food.

Hand feed him and make him sit while you put a little bit of food in the bowl. Tell him to eat. Once he's finished, make him sit. Allow him to watch you put more food in the bowl. Tell him to eat. Repeat until he's eaten his normal amount of food. You will have to do this routine for as long as it takes that he will no longer growl at you. This will show him that you feed him and that you are not going to take his food away from him.

Once he stops the growling, fill his bowl while he watches while he is in sit. Place the bowl on the ground and add food to the bowl as he's eating. Watch his body language to be sure he will not snap at you. As you are adding more food to his bowl as he eats, tell him good boy. Do this until you are able to put your hand in his bowl with no issues from him.

If you become afraid of him, he will know it. If you become frustrated, he will know it and stop listening to you.

It's a long process...just keep at it. Consistency and LOTS of patience.

Keep us posted.

 

[DennasMom]

^^ "Like"

 

[Hector]

Okay I'm going to try not to sound rude, but I totally disagree with correcting a dog when the owner has failed to teach them in the first place. On top of that, the dog is only 4 months old, a baby. A growl in this case can mean the dog is uncomfortable, stressed, or fearful. When you take away his food when he growls, you are reinforcing his fears. Resource guarding is normal in dogs and very easy to train out of them. Please stop with all the corrections. You are being unfair to the dog and that's why the problem never went away. He does not trust you because you have not given him any reason to. Instead of correcting growls, take a step back and analyze the cause of it.

First you have to give the dog a reason not to guard his food. You do this by trading up or adding high value treats when you are nearby when he is eating. You make every food experience an earned and positive experience. Use food for marker training. Teach a "leave it". Practice the leave it a lot and come up with different ways to "proof" it. Proofing means doing the command in different levels of distractions. Teaching a "leave it" will teach him impulse control and patience. A leave it command will get rid of his nipping the hand problem. The same with drop it command. You have to come up with a way to teach that. Dog's don't understand english, they have to learn it.

Watch these videos:
[video=youtube;hQdg0qOVik0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQdg0qOVik0[/video]
[video=youtube;ztRNfyErf8s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztRNfyErf8s[/video]


Here are some exercises to do during mealtime (you can do one method a day then move on, or use a combo throughout the day)

1. Hand feed portions until they are gone
2. Have an empty bowl out and ask him to sit. When he does what you ask of him, fill the bowl up with some food. Let him finish and tell him to sit again. Once he sits, fill his bowl.
3. Have two bowls. Fill one up partially and let him finish. Take empty bowl away and give him the bowl with some food in it. Repeat.
4. If you feed him his whole meal in his bowl, drop high value treats if you want to reach into his bowl (don't do this until you've done the ones above and he is no longer growling). I suggest to drop treats around his bowl and move on to reaching in the bowl motion when he is ready.
5. Drop a couple of tasty treats as you walk by him as he is eating. Just walk by and drop and completely ignore him. Eye contact and voice might make him nervous, so just do this very neutrally.
6. Practice lots of "leave it" commands.

Keep the training sessions short. 2-5 minutes each time. Stop before he gets bored. That way you will build engagement and motivation.

Please stop correcting him. He is not doing anything wrong. He just needs you to teach him the acceptable behaviors. The more you correct his growling, the less he may growl in the future and that can be a very dangerous thing. If a dog is not allowed to growl, they will go directly for the attack if stressed enough. Taking his food away is a great stress. A growl is a dog's form of communication and it serves as a warning.

Remember to have fun. Keep the learning phase as positive as you can. There will be plenty of opportunities to correct a dog once he has gone through the learning phase. If you think your puppy is bad, wait till you hit the teenage phase.

 

[krisx]

hmmm, i see what you're people are saying. im in a way contributing to my own problems. how nice realization....not. lol

ok, joke aside. in my defense, this is my first puppy to raise and i only did as with my other dogs. and the reason i started correction is that the first few times i didn't and the bad behavior escalated and spread to other objects. louder growling and posturing over more things.
and that to me is unacceptable. i want him to understand that those are mine things. puppy or not, don't want a dog that i have to tip-toe around and watch out not to look funny while he claims various items in my house. sorry but no-go!

i do play the trade game with bones&treats and teaching him drop it.

@hector
many thanks for the detailed techniques, will do them and continue handfeeding for a while. he is not growling anymore. also going to teach 'leave it' today on our morning walk in woods, he found poop!!! disgusting...

 

[musicdeb]

Teach the dog what you want them to do. Claiming various items in the house? Again, a dog does not know what you want him to do until you show him. Correcting a dog on something you have not shown them what to do can cause the dog to be confused and fearful.

 

[Hector]

hmmm, i see what you're people are saying. im in a way contributing to my own problems. how nice realization....not. lol

ok, joke aside. in my defense, this is my first puppy to raise and i only did as with my other dogs. and the reason i started correction is that the first few times i didn't and the bad behavior escalated and spread to other objects. louder growling and posturing over more things.
and that to me is unacceptable. i want him to understand that those are mine things. puppy or not, don't want a dog that i have to tip-toe around and watch out not to look funny while he claims various items in my house. sorry but no-go!

i do play the trade game with bones&treats and teaching him drop it.

@hector
many thanks for the detailed techniques, will do them and continue handfeeding for a while. he is not growling anymore. also going to teach 'leave it' today on our morning walk in woods, he found poop!!! disgusting...

When you do a command like a drop it or leave it, you never do it with a high value item like a raw bone or raw hide or a kong. You should never try to get a dog to drop a food item when teaching the drop it. That's an advanced level. You have to build him up to that level. You also don't flash a treat and expect him to drop or back off on a bone. It's like expecting me to give up candy for a granola bar. You will see that he will be much more cooperative if you traded a bone for an item or a biscuit. You always trade or drop him higher value food than the one he already has.

It's like jumping from basic math to geometry. It's a bad example, but my point is you need all those baby steps in between to succeed in geometry. Without it, the person is just confused, lost, and fearful because they do not possess the necessary skills to succeed.For beginning drop it, you can use trade up with tug toy that he likes to play with or you wait until he has something in his mouth and wait for him to drop it and you throw a party. You keep repeating the process.

1. Dog has something in mouth (either on his own or by playing tug with you)
2. Stop play (tug) and wait for him to release, then treat and praise lots!
3. If dog has toy in mouth, show him a very high value treat. Once he drops, say "yes" or use a clicker to click the behavior and give him the treat. Marking and rewarding the right behavior is crucial. You have to do it within a second so the dog "gets it". This is called marker training. I suggest you look this up. There are many many good tutorials on youtube.
4. Once he is dropping things consistently, repeat all your motions and introduce the command. Practice practice practice. If one way doesn't work, then it's time to get creative.


Don't worry, Hector is my first puppy and dog. It is a long learning process. I've had lots of success without using corrections over his resource guarding. I understand that it is frustrating when a dog growls at you and I understand it is important to establish a leadership role in the beginning. It is more important to build a trusting relationship with your dog in the beginning. You cannot build trust without giving him the chance to learn. A trusting relationship will go a long way. Trust me, when you get to the loose leash walking part you will know.

If you don't like him claiming things, don't leave things around for him to claim. Crate him when you can't supervise him. Put his toys away and only bring it out when you want to play with him. Control the environment and don't allow him the opportunity to resource guard. Also remember if a dog doesn't understand a command or is not "getting it", he might need more baby steps that are being skipped.

 

[Hector]

Again, you cannot teach him to leave poop alone if you have not started indoors with no distractions and build him up to that level. Please watch those videos I attached in my previous post. Also keep in mind, you cannot expect the dog to learn over night. To prepare a dog to obey a command, you have to do it over and over again in many different environments and distractions otherwise you will find out the dog suddenly doesn't know the command.

 

[krisx]

@hector dude, huge tnx to you for taking the time to explain all this.

I watched the videos, already doing something similar for impulse control, because i noticed in the beginning that my boy has huge need for it
i already know about clicker and marker training. don't like clicker, because i find it bothersome to have in my hand. but i do use marker 'yes' 'no' 'enough'

i taught him not 'take it' command, but not to take anything out of my hand until i say 'watch me', he makes eye contact and i say 'ok'.
it did wonders for his self control.

i also play a really fun game game with him. he lays down and i stack treats on his paw, or both paws, or his nose. again i say watch me and they ok. its real fun when i do both paws and he is in so much sweet torment because he doesn't know wich paw to look at while i stack its hilarious! or when i stack treats that he adores on his nose, he stares with HUGE eyes so hard like a fish in a bowl
also does wonders for control.

tnx for pointing mistake, im going to try drop&leave with tennis balls and toys. going to be less stressful learning.
really want this to be good for me and him.

 

[Hector]

It sounds like you are making good progress. I am glad I could be somewhat useful. Please keep us posted.

 

[Hector]

I forgot about these articles, but here they are from Dr. Sophia Yin on food aggression.

Treatment of Food Aggression in Dogs is About Finesse, Not Force | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

A Scientific Approach Can Help You Solve Many Types of Possession Aggression, Part 1: Food Bowl | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

 

[krisx]

Last couple of days there is the most amazing transformation happening at my place

i started by going out and buying ridicously large&wide dog food bowl. its more fit for tyranosourus rex than my puppy. old one was since he was a small puppy and is barely large enough so he can put his nose in. not good for what i wanted.

i still hand feed for things that could be chopped in small pieces. he does sit&stay, then watch me, then ok.
for other things, i put piece by piece in his new bowl, he does sit&stay, then watch me, then ok. i sit by him and throw chunks of food or treats in his bowl.
or when he's chewing on a large bone or something like that, i sit by the towel, watch tv and throw food at him.

no more growling...
...and meal times are so much less stresfull...

i think we are getting there

 

[musicdeb]

Great news! Good job on the training! Remain consistent...

 

[Hector]

Great news! Good job on the training! Remain consistent...

+1

 

[krisx]

We were doing so well. i got to the point were i could sit right nest to him and he would lie down and lean to me while chewing his meaty bones and stuff. His whole body language was relaxed. it was so good to see.

...and then a disaster!!

He eats on a towel or rag-carpet that i put there for meal time, to avoid messing my regular carpet. Smaller stuff that i can chop up i still hand feed. But larger pieces of raw meaty bones i cant chop up so he gets those to chew up. So he was chewing, all good. And then he was gradually moving on a edge of towel, with a bloody chewed up mess about to spill all over my nice, clean carpet. So I walk up to him, and touch his butt, say move, to move him back.

And i guess he spooked, he did something like ugly, loud bark/shout that sounded suspiciously like: crazy b*tch wtf you doing??? get away from me!!!
I froze. Guess i spooked also then i made him sit, take the RMB mess and put it back on towel.

And then....

The whole fireworks, drama lightshow right back like in the beginning. Growling like a wild beast. Stiff body, chewing like that wolf Fenrir who swallow the sun&moon. Next day also like that, only a little less.

I've seen his 'limit' so I backed away a little and started from the beginning, throw treat from distance, walk by and throw food.

And today....

Its been 3days, and he is ok again. When he has a big piece of something in his mouth, if he's exited the first reflex is to stiffen. But the when he sees that nobody is 'out to get him' he relaxed again and is cool. So now I can walk right up to him again, give him treat, he drops the RMB to get it. Continue eating. All good. Im overjoyed there's no long lasting damage.

I think we had a little relapse. I also think I need to continue and also condition him to allow me to touch him while eating. We are practicing drop&leave. Do exercise for watch me, while i stack food on him. (Now we progressed to me stacking on both his paws and nose)

What do you think? Opinions pls. Also how would you solve the whole towel thing?

 

[Hector]

He is not fully comfortable and I think you may be going too fast in a short amount of time. I do not suggest giving him such a high value item like a RMB and messing with him. Make him work for it and once you've given it to him, just let him be. Best is to not allow him to have such a high value item and if you do, leave him alone and give him space after he's earned it. If you want to remove the bone from the dog that's not very good at giving high value items up, the best thing to do is to lead them away from it with a distraction or command. That way they are giving the bone up instead of you coming over and taking it from them. You can also trade up for a higher or similar value item such as a stuffed kong. Just tell them to leave it (bone) and quickly take it away and give them the stuffed kong. I think at this point you should start fading out the treat throwing. Start doing this randomly and not every time. Allow him to observe and digest that his high value item won't get taken away when you walk by. Does he know the "move" command or did you just try to push him out of the way to save the mess from getting onto the carpet? I think a better command would have been leave it, but I don't know how well your dog knows that. I would have said leave it, then put him in a sit-stay and put the bone back on the towel and then released him back to it with your release word (I use "okay") or walked away to let him know he can have it again.

Can you feed him RMBs outdoors or on the kitchen floor? You can also use a bigger towel or lay the towel on his bed. How are you desensitizing him on touching him while he's eating? I wouldn't do it with high value things that take a long time to eat because that will give them the need to defend whatever's left. I personally don't like to touch the dogs while they are eating. To condition the dog to being handled while eating, you can start with body handling exercises. Work on collar grabs, handling of the ears, mouth, toes, etc. Every time you touch, squeeze, stroke, poke etc different body parts make sure to reward him for good calm behaviors. If there are problem areas such as the paws, I would work more with the paws. Use touch/mark/reward and if he's okay, up the difficulty and go with a 5 sec hold of the paw or handling individual nails. If you find that's he's okay with being touched anywhere, start touching him on the back while he's eating a couple pieces of kibble (low value food) on the ground.

1. Present dog with a couple of pieces of kibble on the ground near you. Allow him to get it.
2. While he is eating, give him a quick stroke or pet or pat on the back.
3. Dog looks or finishes up. Mark the behavior (for not snapping or getting mad or tense/nervous) and reward with high value food/treats.
4. If dog is comfortable, repeat. If dog is looking tense then go back to more body handling exercises.

You can also do things like touching him and giving him a good cuddle and then marking his good behavior and throw a treat for him to chase down. Recall him back to you and give him a couple of short pets/rubs/squeezes/slaps/whatever and if he enjoys/tolerates that, throw 1-2 treats and let him chase it down. Call him back and repeat. Make it a game. Make it fun for both of you. These are just some random stuff I came up with on the top of the my head. It may or may not work.

 

[DennasMom]

All good recommendations, and it sounds like the puppy is starting to 'get it'.

One thing I would suggest in addition to "leave it", is "wait".

To me, "leave it" means - let it go and move on.
"wait" means... give me a minute... and then you can have what you want.

We use "wait" All The Time around here... "Wait" before going outside (to chase the squirrel that just ran the fence line), "wait" before getting a treat", "wait" before getting out of the car at the park, etc.

So Denna has learned that good things come to those who "wait".

I would also say the 'touch' you did when Astor was eating might have startled him - so a sound cue might help before the touch. You might avoid using his name right now - you want his name to mean only Good things.

I sometimes just use a "psssst" noise to alert Denna that something interesting is about to happen... gets her attention without really saying anything.
Once the concentration on the food has been severed, you can get a new command into the brain - i.e. "wait" "move" "leave it" - and then your release word; "ok" or "break".

As mentioned above -lots of repetitions, patience, consistency... and don't worry! this is a learning process for the puppy, too. He's working on instincts until he knows what works better - which soon will be sitting and waiting for a cue from you before digging in.

There's a good game explained on youtube called "it's yer choice" - google brings it right up ("youtube it's yer choice" should get you there).

Another trainer I follow has also suggested that puppies and dogs are like a bank account... you get out what you put in (with interest)... so be sure you add lots of calm, relaxing, loving energy to your puppy. Reward him with what you know he likes when he's calm, and that will encourage him to stay calm more often.