My Jack - question regarding aggression control

[DennasMom]

I use "leave it" for interacting with "bad" dogs, too... That way you're telling your dog what you WANT him to do... walk away. But, I agree, you have to get that command in EARLY to get it to sink in and have an effect.

And, as Hector's videos point out - sometimes you just need a signal that can break through the dog's focus - either a whistle (which is VERY recognizable) or a LOUD voice (note in Hector's middle video... the quieter male voice did NOT get through to Hector, but Linda's did )

I would say a muzzle would also be a good tool to have on hand - that will give you more confidence to put your dog in challenging situations so you can proof out the "leave it" when it pertains to other dogs or items that really take his focus away from you.

 

[DennasMom]

As for when/why this is more of an issue now... hard to say.

Another tactic with the stupid loose staffy would be to go after the staffy and scare him away - since you really don't want Jack to be letting him near you if he's that unstable. That would show Jack that you are listening to him, and that might help him listen more to you, as well.... since you'd be working as a team. Just a thought...

The part of him not listening to you to the point that he might harm YOU is troubling, to me.... that shows a lack of respect and waaaay too much focus on the "intruder", to me. So, keep working with him, and see if you can find something that can snap him out of that obsessive focus.

 

[Hector]

Thank you - the enemy dog was just wandering around since Jack was 3-4 months old but they never interfered and Jack never reacted, so I didn't expected him to. That is an unbalanced dog that snapped at people around and we were aware of him but nothing else. I was 4 meters away from Jack when he snapped, in my yard. Later during the day there was another episode when he tried to snap at another dog passing by, which happened to be a previous friend of him. And yesterday there almost was another one but we stopped it before it began.
I can ultimately control him by dragging him by the collar out of the conflict zone, with the risk of getting some injuries and I wouldn't risk it - I will get a muzzle for him and start the long lead training immediately.

It would be very interesting to know how the heck did this switch happened - he was so friendly weeks ago. Could be one of the girls with a different type of energy feeding his aggressiveness? The young buggers have been around him at every incident, and at the last one Sophia starting yelling (even if she was few meters away). Can he show the "mom's syndrome" - protecting the pups? Or is he just growing up and going through a different stage? Can he be in pain? (in somehow coincided with the injury of the paw)? Should we visit the vet?
With us he's the same sweet pup as always. He's totally fine with the girls. He just reacts totally different to other dogs - even his friends.
And - it might just my assumption here - he seems quite wary of other humans also. We had some friends at our place, they did pet him as usually BUT it took just a little bit longer for him to come closer. His usual self is happy and all over the new people to kiss them, immediately.

You can always take him to the vet and get some blood work done. Check his thyroid levels. It could just be an age thing that's hormone related, I honestly don't know. Usually I read about dogs changing anywhere from 1 yr to 18 months. Usually 18 months is almost always the number.

No matter what the reason, training has to start. You don't even need to do things like LAT or premack recall. A harder drill is to get him to heel in the presence of other dogs. Heel and recall on a 6 ft leash when there are dogs present or even down/stay duration drills. Lots of ways to bring his obedience to the next level. Always start at a distance where he can remain focused and always keep him some sort of line so you always have control.

Also, your observation with change in attitude towards people needs to be taken seriously. I would suggest having him either separated/crated when you can't supervise him and when you can, you should have him on a leash under your control at all times and tell the humans to ignore and leave him alone. The dog doesn't want to be touched and that should be respected.

 

[teodora]

I use leave it for anything else, including high value food or treats, and he leaves it. I use leave it when they play and they leave each other alone. It doesn't have any effect when he's focused on another dog. He's simply ignoring me in that particular case.
I am pretty sure he won't turn on me intentionally, he was just too much into fight mode, he was loaded and he was ready to snap at touch. He didn't bite. But it was a warning. I've seen dogs doing it before: it's hard to get them calm once they're in full fight. And I agree that prevention is the key of success here.
I'll start the training with him today, I'll watch the videos several times and get a muzzle as well in the meantime. I want to keep Jack social, well and alive no matter how much time and effort it takes. I can't stand the idea of him destroying another dog or biting a human: too much pain for them and for us. I'm ok with the fact that he has protection instincts kicking in, he just have to learn to stop reacting when we say so. He's a smart boy and I am sure we'll get him there quickly.

 

[Ginurse]

I use leave it for anything else, including high value food or treats, and he leaves it. I use leave it when they play and they leave each other alone. It doesn't have any effect when he's focused on another dog. He's simply ignoring me in that particular case.
I am pretty sure he won't turn on me intentionally, he was just too much into fight mode, he was loaded and he was ready to snap at touch. He didn't bite. But it was a warning. I've seen dogs doing it before: it's hard to get them calm once they're in full fight. And I agree that prevention is the key of success here.
I'll start the training with him today, I'll watch the videos several times and get a muzzle as well in the meantime. I want to keep Jack social, well and alive no matter how much time and effort it takes. I can't stand the idea of him destroying another dog or biting a human: too much pain for them and for us. I'm ok with the fact that he has protection instincts kicking in, he just have to learn to stop reacting when we say so. He's a smart boy and I am sure we'll get him there quickly.

@Teodora: I think that the prey drive in a lot of dogs, may be more than environment, because no two dogs (even from the same litter and same environs) may react the same way. I think you got a lot of great advice. I know everyone is saying that the fence isn't the issue, but I would suggest that the fence (lack of)provides for an environment that your pup may not be able handle? I would spruce up that fence before I did anything else. Sorry for being the outlier, but I think physical controls may give your pup some breathing room and relief to do some stellar training.

 

[Hector]

Some LAT videos. There are lots more on youtube.

[video=youtube;-6Eb3-0CSoU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6Eb3-0CSoU[/video]

Here's one from a dog trainer on this forum. He has many more videos on dog-dog reactivity on his channel.

[video=youtube;ytx8SfBYweQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytx8SfBYweQ[/video]

 

[teodora]

thank you!
Now I let him out him in the back (fence fixed) where he can't see/hear other dogs or humans. I didn't take him for a walk yesterday and today I'll get a muzzle and a long lead to start training. If it happens again i'll have other immediate priorities than making a movie but i would really like to show you how he reacts: it's quick and not very nice to look at.
I'll get a trainer coming to see him today also and I hope I will hear something else than "get him fixed" or "this is the breed".

 

[Hector]

Another case of dog - dog aggression. I think this guy is great. If you have time you should watch all 4 parts.

[video=youtube;4ODPlEq4wYo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ODPlEq4wYo[/video]

 

[teodora]

I will watch all of them as soon as I get home, thanks a lot!

 

[Ginurse]

That's wonderful Teodora. I am a strong proponent of Maslow's Heirarchy of needs: the physical safety/needs, always come before training. I have three young kids and a pup: they know that they are safe, have food, and can rely on us (parents). Being comfortable and safe, makes for an environment where kids and pups can learn. I know this sounds odd, but I think the vulnerable need to feel safe before any true training/lessons can commence. File:MaslowsHierarchyOfNeeds.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[teodora]

Ginurse: off topic, but i love your fluffy pup!!!!
Yeah the bloody fence in the back is fixed and reinforced on both sides -the neighbours have been just as interested as us to fix it QUICKLY. However, I reconsidered and for now my pack is not allowed outside without MY supervision - at all. Not even in the back. Nowhere. If it increases the level of frustration: bad luck. I am damn more frustrated than any of them.

They know something is quite wrong, as they've been veeery silent this morning....

 

[Ginurse]

Ginurse: off topic, but i love your fluffy pup!!!!
Yeah the bloody fence in the back is fixed and reinforced on both sides -the neighbours have been just as interested as us to fix it QUICKLY. However, I reconsidered and for now my pack is not allowed outside without MY supervision - at all. Not even in the back. Nowhere. If it increases the level of frustration: bad luck. I am damn more frustrated than any of them.

They know something is quite wrong, as they've been veeery silent this morning....

Thanks Teodora, we love our "flawed" mastiff (by review standards). I truly want to wear a t-shirt to our pup training lessons that says: Yes, he is a full-bred English mastiff, no he is not a leonberger, no he isn't a mix, yes he is friendly NUT.

I am glad you fixed it, because at the end of the day, your pup would be responsible for any injuries to your neighbor's pets. It wouldn't have mattered if they (neighbor's dogs) were the first to attack. I hate how the big dogs are always at fault, but it seems as if that is the way of things. My worry in your case was that this was going to happen. I hated to sound so all-knowing, because I am not. I just know about little ones (kids and pups) and the need to feel safe and have some structure around them. You are quite awesome for fixing things so quickly.

You sound like an awesome fur-parent Teodora: I think you have things well in hand. ;-)

 

[teodora]

thank you. I really didn't see it coming so with no warning - now that i got my head around it I go shopping for gear and we'll manage it. I hate the advice I usually get from local vets/trainers - mostly, "spay or neuter". Well, I don't wanna cut his balls - I want my dog and his balls to listen to me and I'll make sure he'd better do it!
he's very submissive now and I bet he knows he crossed the line.
I'm upset on the owners of the crazy staffy as well: just the fact that he's smaller size doesn't justify why he is allowed to roam the town by himself and wind up all the others. And it happened so many times before. Jack was never - and I mean NEVER - alone on the street, and because of that little shit now he is in trouble. Well, my rational part knows that the staffy was just a trigger, the aggression problem was not caused by him - but, still...

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

IMO the only thing spay/neuter fixes is sexual reproduction.

I can't help but deep down feels uber sad for male dogs that have no balls. Can't they fix them without removing the testes and scrotum all together? Our little vacay friend has been (trying to) hump Roxy and the wife expressed concern. She didn't realize they actually remove them completely. I think my Hank has some fine balls and they belong where they are. I would honestly look at him different without them. That's probably just a guy thing.

I believe there is nothing "wrong" with your dogs. They just need to know what's acceptable and what's not.

[video=youtube;-Bizf6GT5iI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bizf6GT5iI[/video]

 

[teodora]

Yeah we work on it - just hot a basket muzzle now and 1st set of exercises tonight. I need some whisky....

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[Max's mom]

Lots of good info here. Work with your trainer/dog behaviorist. Using a whistle is fine IMO but if you don't have it with you, it won't help. Having had a recent "fight" between my boys, I could not call Max off and could not calm the situation without reaching in. This was dangerous, I was in panic mode, he was in fight mode and it was very scarey.
We are currently working on focus, target training and "settle". We do not have consisitent leave it for long periods of time or in times of high energy. We continue to work on this and I am working with the boys to calm the high energy by voice and command rather than whistle or other method. Basically, teaching calm behavior gets special loving or treats and using tone and pitch of voice as reward. Right or wrong, we are learning this and will continue to work towards calm, non reactive or "bomb-proof" dog. Your guy is big. He's still very young. Training is a work in progress. Take all very seriously. Continue to research and learn and PRACTICE with your training techniques every day, even if five minutes here, two minutes there. Worki it into everything you do. Good luck. Yes, it can be very frightening and it causes you heartache to think your little baby could behave this way. I compair it to a finding out your teenager has been using heroin.
It feels bad. There are signs that are there.You can help. It's hard work. The payoff is tremendous...but you may always have doubts. Play it safe for the sake of your pup and your sanity.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Off topic sort of. I also have suffered similar blows to my pride. Just don't get caught up in it, and don't think that it's something you can't fix. Throwing money at it will not help. It's a matter of right time, right place, nip it in the bud.

Unexpected things happen. All we can do is try to prepare for next time, and learn to identify the signs.

 

[al capone]

Hi Teodora just asking what the trainer told you about Jack,and how Jack is doing.

 

[teodora]

the trainer didn't identify any aggression traits. I was pretty sure he would not, as the previous issues are not typical for Jack at all. I talked again to the vet and I think at this point that it has been related to his leg injury. He was in pain and the level of aggression was totally different.
We have 1 more hour exercising recall/fetch/find every evening and made the walks longer.

Yesterday they broke another hole - not in the same fence - and migrated from the back to the front yard. So we found three happy waving tails at the gate when we arrived home. I've almost had a heart attack. We really need to relocate to the farm and make encounters for them - it's planned for some time, but we got stuck with the logistics. At this point I don't even trust them in the house alone - and I am not talking about chewing furniture (which they will surely do) - I am talking their capacity to simply break the doors if they really want to.
I know who is the "escaper" - it's only one, but the other 2 will join in. And she'll get all of them in trouble.
I also consider crating her - or crating them all - every time we go out without them.

 

[Hector]

hey I have an idea you can tryoh can't attach pics