"Issues"

[khplaw]

"Issues"

OK. I give up. Well, not really give UP, just frustrated. My 7 month old corso, female, has recently had some behavioral changes. For one thing, she is snapping at and sometimes "play" fighting with my two Boston terriers, only it's not so much play as fighting. Bostons are male and female, both altered, age 5 years. She waltzed up to my female boston and with NO provocation, snapped at her. Same with the male earlier in the week.

Then, she has taken to charging over to our neighbors house to visit with their dogs; Dane, lab and a min pin who is a yappy little cretin. I have even stood in front of her, between her and the neighbors and it becomes a footrace and I always loose. I know she should be on a leash, which she will be from now on, but what I want to know is why is she just doing this now? She was pretty much off leash perfection at home and now this. When I finally caught up with her, I grabbed her collar and she turned to bite my hand. I am NOT having any of THAT! Also another first. I would have pinned her to the ground right there (serious enough to warrant that in my mind) but we were in hostile territory with the other dogs closing in.

Mind you these are the kind of neighbors that would prefer to sue you as look at you, and despite local laws and ordinances, their dogs run wild, coming to our lawn to make their "deposits" and their dogs aren't licensed. They are "renters" who have the reputation for moving into a place, trashing it and then not paying rent for as long as they can get away with it, and the owners are out of state. Our HOA has met on this issue numerous times, but the husband is a hot head and has numerous criminal felonies for assault and battery, so no one is willing to make a target out of themselves. I have very kindly discussed all this with them, trying to be good neighbors, but enough is enough. The wife actually told me that she feels bad for my dog that it doesn't get to play with her dogs. I told her that yes, it's too bad isn't it. I didn't want to tell her that I didn't want her picking up a disease.

So I was going to crate her, but then I remembered you aren't supposed to crate for punishment. I will admit that I slapped her up side the head when she tried to bite me. I feel bad but it was more instinct than anything else.

I am hoping this is part of her adolescent phase; she is seven months on the 19th. I had thought she might be coming into season, but nope. Like I said, this has been a pretty distinct change.

I know I am always the one offering suggestions, which probably seems pretty obnoxious, but honestly, I am just putting in my two cents hoping something helps out. But now I am stuck.

Any thoughts?

 

[fdchampion]

Re: "Issues"

I just read a thread under the Training & Behavior issues that the teenage stage is from 8-12 or 13 months...I know that's one month shy but it might still be whats going on...I'm not sure what all behaviors that consists of but I'm sure someone will be along soon with more and better advice. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Good Luck!

 

[Smokeycat]

Re: "Issues"

Welcome to the teenage mastiff. Kryten was that age when he started his phase too. He basically forgot everything except for being housebroken. I put him back onto a strict NILF program and took away any of the privileges that he had earned. He had to work to earn everything back. The hardest part for me was being able to exercise him enough because he lost the ability to go to the off-leash and we had been going 3-4x a week. Another thing I did was put him in a training class because he tended to behave better for strangers than me at that time.

 

[khplaw]

Re: "Issues"

Thanks. I am looking around various places for different threads on dominant breeds. Sounds like I am going to need to buy stock in a tasty single malt! As my friend says "Some dogs don't make it to a year", after which he was promptly told to leave!

 

[musicdeb]

Re: "Issues"

Yes, welcome to the teenage stage. Remain consistent in training with LOTS of patience. Do not let the pup feel your frustration because that causes them to shut down even more and stop listening. Buy yourself lots of alcohol to get ya through this... hehehehehe

I would leash the pup while outside.

The crate is a place for the pup to decompress. When he gets that excited to snap at you, then putting him in the crate is not a punishment, it's a place for him to decompress.

Titan has snapped me when I was wiping his mouth. I took a deep breath, made him sit and proceeded to tell him "NO!" in a stern, calm voice. He knows when I say "NO!" in a stern, calm voice that he did wrong. He sulked for a good 3-4 hours.

I understand your gut reaction was to hit the pup but I would try my best not to hit him. That can possibly lead to fear aggression which is a very difficult behavior to modify. Titan has fear aggression because his previous owner hit him to correct him. He's improved about 80% and it's still a work in progress.

Can you not call animal control anonmously to report the pups off leash? Do you have a leash law? IMO, no pup should be off leash in a neighborhood. It's different if you live on a large property out in the country.

 

[NeSaxena]

Re: "Issues"

I'm just getting out of this phase myself! Dreading round 2..

I completely agree with all of you, stock up on the single malt, practice NILIF and outstubborn her every step of the way! Without losing patience, of course. That's the only thing that worked for me.

 

[season]

Re: "Issues"

Get back to the basics. Discipline and structure are so important in any dogs lives if they are to grow into calm, relaxed dogs. Sometimes we get comfortable and let our guard down and at that time an inch can turn into a mile. Consistency is huge. It's time to right the ship and get back to the basics. Lead, don't follow. Your dog will sense that.

Lastly, I enjoyed reading your post until I got to the "bashing" the neighbors part. It's important to focus on you and not deflect your frustrations on your neighbors, whether you like them or not. It's not our place to judge. We all have our issues. It's hard enough to focus on our own instead of worrying about the next man.

Good luck with your "issues". Hope they get figured out.

 

[khplaw]

Re: "Issues"

Believe it or not, the "animal control" folks are located about 35 miles from here, and spend time in their office and not in the field. Have tried the Sheriff, who says it is a civil and not a criminal matter, which of course is correct. Addressing the "issue" directly is also ineffective. It is difficult to avoid 'bashing' the neighbors when they make such available targets. But we can try a little harder, thanks.

I have a hard time thinking of a time when her routine and instructions re INconsistent. It's like an military base here; eat at this time, walk at this time, go to town at this time, nap at this time, walk again at this time...the commands are always the same as well. She hasn't seemed bored. Our walks take us through parks, into fields, through town, she is greeted by many people along the way. We try to do one new thing every day. walk a different street, stop for coffee at a new place so she can practice her service dog skills. I must be missing it, I am open to suggestions!?!? ray:

 

[Hector]

Re: "Issues"

Maybe she was trying to protect her territory when she saw the loose dogs. What kind of training are you going to do with the handler aggression? All I can think of is like you said, not let her be off leash and be in those situations. Also, more work on recall and focus. Train recall with leash and train the recall on leash every time you are outside. I don't want to sound harsh, but if she is going to be a service dog - her main focus should be on you and look to you for direction and prove to be reliable.

 

[khplaw]

Re: "Issues"

We do recall on a lunge line (20 ft) in the park. It is timely but not instantaneous. We can continue to work on that. Trainer aggression; I assume that means my aggression when she tried to bite me? When jaws are about to close (seriously) down on your hand, and it is all happening in slow motion because it is creepy scary, what would your instinct be? How does smacking her help with that? She pulls her head away and suddenly that hand is no longer of interest. She had never done anything like that, even under similar circumstances, so it took me totally by surprise. There was no anger involved, just instinct to prevent my hand from becoming perforated.

She absolutely knows where our property line is. 99 times out of 100 she stops before she crosses it. I do not know what was different her, but SHE went to THEIR yard. A full 150 yards away. For the first time EVER!

Not too long ago, an AKC judge was in the ring, evaluating the dogs physical attributes. She got to the teeth and the dog snapped at her, and she popped the dog instantly. The owner/handler said "I am so sorry" and the judge muttered something along the lines of "..that isn't the first time he's done that but I hope it will be the last time." My point being, if someone as seasoned as a judge has that reaction, perhaps it isn't necessarily that wrong thing to do, just not the preferred response. I am a human being and imperfect. I am also a work in progress. RELIABLE AND DEPENDENT for sure. That is the goal. This is the first time she has deviated from her norm and I cannot workout why.

 

[Huskerkid]

Re: "Issues"

Smokeycat how'd you fix the off leash attention deficit disorder I have a 1 year old CC male (unfixed). Until recently he has been great with his obedience and really no major backslide on his recall. That being said he has bolted to chase deer twice now on our walks through the park at night (really quite beautiful to watch if I wasn't so upset with him for not listening to the command) and will not respond until he is tires from the chase. The last time I thought the buck he was chasing was going to charge him! He reacts as he should on the long lead but would prefer to find a solution for off leash walks....perhaps a shock collar? Any suggestions?

 

[DennasMom]

Re: "Issues"

Lots of good stuff, above.

My thoughts -

1. teenager!! pushing limits, trying to see what she can get away with. Don't let her get away with ANYTHING.

2. leash up, but maybe use a long lead sometimes... so you can give her some freedom when she's good (as reward), but be able to correct any unwanted behaviors quickly without putting a body part in danger.

3. hitting... yeah, not the best, but I understand the gut response... my DH was bit by our first dog when the dog tried to grab a toy that was in his hand... let's just say, an Object Lesson was delivered, and that dog was always very polite about taking toys after that.

4. regimented/rules... I know that's what some dogs need, but maybe she needs more uncertainty in her life? Make her work for dinner... and move dinner time around, so she doesn't know when it's coming... i.e. she has to be good ALL the time for dinner to eventually arrive. Just thinking about mixing it up some. It might not work, though, dogs do like consistency, too. We have consistent rules, but pretty much everything else on the schedule is up for grabs.

5. I was going to suggest you get out and do more socialization outside the neighborhood, but it sounds like you already do that - so, I'd say keep it up! Try and provide her with more positive interactions with other dogs. That's where I find signing up for a group class to be helpful - not only do you get out and try new stuff (I'm thinking of signing Denna up for a nose-work class next month), but you also get to be around other dogs that are also working and on-leash with attentive owners. There may also be some get togethers on http://www.meetup.com in your area - we have a few groups that do weekly drop-in classes and group hikes that are fun excuses to get out with other on-leash, well-behaved dogs.

As NeSaxena said: "...practice NILIF and outstubborn her every step of the way! Without losing patience..."
I agree, 100%!!

As for bad neighbors.... not much you can really do about them - and it sounds like you and your HOA have tried what can be done. Since the wife sounded open to communication, maybe you can work on her a bit? turn her into an ally?? I'd be working on her dogs, too... do some impromptu training, so they listen to you when you tell them to 'go home' or 'stop' or 'sit'... I had our neighbor's barky terrier trained to "GO INSIDE" when I asked... just by using the right tone of voice... she'd grumble, but she'd stop barking at nothing... finally. If nothing else, the husband might see you and his dogs becoming friends... and decide to keep them inside just to keep them away from your friendly influences! HA!

 

[Smokeycat]

Re: "Issues"

Smokeycat how'd you fix the off leash attention deficit disorder I have a 1 year old CC male (unfixed). Until recently he has been great with his obedience and really no major backslide on his recall. That being said he has bolted to chase deer twice now on our walks through the park at night (really quite beautiful to watch if I wasn't so upset with him for not listening to the command) and will not respond until he is tires from the chase. The last time I thought the buck he was chasing was going to charge him! He reacts as he should on the long lead but would prefer to find a solution for off leash walks....perhaps a shock collar? Any suggestions?

For a couple of months he wasn't allowed off leash outside of the yard at all. I then started to start letting him off leash only when the chances of distractions, his worst was little female dogs, were minimized. The first instance that he didn't obey a command, regardless of what it was, he ended up on a 2' leash for the rest of the outing. It took a little over a month but eventually he accepted that he had to 'mind his manners' to be allowed to play off leash.

 

[khplaw]

Re: "Issues"

Thank you DeannasMom. I appreciate positive feedback and an understanding "voice" of direction. I had wondered if perhaps she was too regimented, too scheduled, too "automated" for lack of a better word. She knows what comes next and has become bored and is looking for something new to do. If that IS the case, then perhaps more "free" time where she is in an enclosed area running like a mad woman with her doberman friend and my Bostons, and then to a coffee afterward? Things she cannot predict. Yes, the park will be the same routine, just out of order, different but similar. And mea culpa again for the indiscretion vis a vis a smack. If that is what you mean, then I will give it a shot and see what happens. Clearly she is either confused or bored, which when combined with an adolescent mindset produces unpredictable and erratic behaviour. Sounds like my son as a teen an I survived him (lots of single malt!)

Again, thank you for putting a different spin on all this. It all seems so clear once you've heard it before!

 

[Hector]

Re: "Issues"

Sorry, handler aggression means the dog redirecting on handler. One thing you can practice that I remember is training recall in the house or yard with either voice/hand signal or voice and hand target (the "here" command) and before you mark and reward, add the extra step by grabbing her collar. Maybe if you do this enough she will be conditioned to collar grabs even during over threshold situations. Another little thing to add maybe is to say the dog's name before you grab the collar if she ever gets into that situation. It will at least break her focus even if it doesn't show, she will still hear you.

I'd like to add I use the crate for "punishments". I use it for time outs, safe place, a place when I'm not home, when guests come over, when you fail to listen, when you cry a lot.

I'm not blaming you for smacking her out of instinct. I'd like to ask what kind of focus training have you done with her? How much proofing (practice commands under different levels of distraction) do you do? How strict do you have to be with a dog when you train them to be a service dog? Do you use mark and reward system? Have you started to use corrections? What do you do when she doesn't listen?

Going back to the part about snapping at the other household female. I don't know if what I'm saying is true or not, but I have an old shep/chow female and this is what I've heard from her previous owners. These are the same owners that had her since she was a puppy. She is the alpha bitch. It's a thing in her head that she must dominate every dog that comes into the household. All these dogs lived outdoors. She's not strong or tough in any way, but she cannot live with other females. She would fight every day even though she sucks, so I don't know if this may be a dominance thing with your other dog?

 

[khplaw]

Re: "Issues"

I used to be a horse trainer, for decades. The last 10 years I worked with"broken headed" horses; those mistreated by humans and therefore untrusting, anxious, angry and very very strong. I learned to read body language very well, almost too well because it works with humans too! That is why Sophie's dash was such a shock; she telegraphed nothing.

I have read and reviewed Leerburg, and found their methods interesting. Michael Ellis as well. I tend to "customize" things for my comfort level without sacrificing performance. I watch for learning and comprehension and tailor accordingly. I have been very successful with this method, with this dog and others. No one dog is like another. I do repetition with positive reinforcement, and no negative responses. Until this smack incident. I school her 5 out of 7 days a week, with a 20-25 minute routine of repetitive exercises. When she anticipates the exercise, I change the order in which I conduct the schooling. I also add a new exercise as she learns one well enough to anticipate it. We do the majority of our schooling at the park where there are distractions aplenty in the form of other people walking their dogs, people playing basketball or tennis, children of all ages playing on the Big Toy which is a big climb on structure with various different challenges. on this apparatus, I ask several things of her; work on unstable surfaces, go down a slide, swing on the big tire with just a little movement, go over obstacles, under obstacles, stop on a 6 x 6 beam (which is only slightly larger than a balance beam for humans), and then there is the general sit, stay, down/stay, wait, up, down, turn, back, here, with me, and she works for my "second" who fills in when I am too ill upon occasion. She works beautifully for her as well. My second is 80 years old this year so she is not Hercules by any means. Sophie used to growl at everyone which was off putting and not in keeping with the purpose of a service dog. I asked her to replace that behavior with "Greet" when she feels its appropriate and safe. She still gets to weigh in as to how she feels about the person, without terrifying those around her. If she is uncomfortable, she will back up and stand on my foot (no kidding) which is what she naturally does. SO I work with it. When she backs up, so do I. WHen she is comfortable with a person, she will walk up in front of them and offer her rather sizeable paw! I have yet to meet a person who is put off by her "handshake."

All the owners and their dogs walking at the park know that I have cookies. ALL of them stop and politely sit and wait for their cookie. Some owners, who have not been able to get their dogs to do ANYthing they ask, are gobsmacked and ask if I give lessons. Flattering but no. Sophie has zero problem with dogs she has not met as demonstrated when these dogs approach for their cookies and praise.

I ask her to look as we begin our schooling, or any new thing, new place, new activity. I ask her to look at me the entire distance as we go through a cross walk. When I need her to pay attention, I get her to look, then sit, and we are good from there. There are very few times when she is so excited (usually the case) that she will not look to me.

There is NO standardization for service dogs that I am aware of. There are "agencies" to whom you pay a fee on an annual basis and for that fee issue a tag which has a phone number manned by humans. Who they are is not a mystery; they are revenue generators. You can have a service dog for the price of an annual fee. There are "reccomendations for behavior" which essentially being able to attain the CGC title and the only difference between SD and Therapy dogs is that TD have to be monitored for a certain number of hours by a person who has been adjudged competent. My plan, after consulting with local law enforcement agencies, is to get the CGC and then have her evaluated by one of the K9 officers as well. Presumably they have more stringent requirements. However, after our little encounter with the Killer Chi- wa-was (I have given up trying to spell it), in which my Sophie demonstrated her obedience and dedication while breaking her prong collar, all in the presence of a K9 officer who was duly impresses so I doubt that will be difficult. Sophie was, in fact, invited on the QT to enjoy some time with these trained K9's as they work their programs, on a strictly informal basis.

Whatever I have been doing is working. She does focus, and for more than 50 seconds at a time without being intimidated or becoming evasive. She has a remarkable heart. She has been proofed during parades, during car shows, during baseball games, at horse shows, and while children are screaming and playing within 15 feet of her. She proves she knows her commands. Corrections are more in the form of verbal reprimand, she is SOOOOOOO sensitive. Tone and volume are indicative of the severity of the offense and whether this is a repeated offense. If she continues to do something improperly I first look to see if I am doing something to cue her improperly, and work from there. Many times, we repeat that exercise until she gets it right and then we stop, end on a good note. And cookies...ahh cookies make everything better.. At first it was all about the cookies, then praise gradually replaced cookies every time until the end of the lesson.

And yes we play. She romps in a fully enclosed area 2-3 times a week, when I can get her there and we throw the ball, play frisbee, etc. She gets to be a dog.

People who encounter Sophie for the first time are surprised by several things. First, how well behaved she is. When oncoming persons are headed our way, I ask Sophie to step aside and sit and watch the person go by. Which she does. Next, they ask what kind of dog is she and yes those who guess thing put bull. Finally, that she is a mere 7 months old (she is 25.5 inches at the withers and I just verified that she is 94 pounds) and still growing.

If I have missed something, let me know. I may not use the same terminology, but I think I have it covered. She could have passed the CGC test at 4 months, OFF leash, but she had to be 6 months says the evaluator, despite the AKC saying only that she has to have had all her vaccinations, which she completed at 4.5 months. Now we have moved on to bigger things. She goes into restaurants, high end art shops, department stores, everywhere I go she goes.

So if there is something I missed doing, please let me know. Honestly, feedback is good. There are days when my illness makes me less cheerful and on those days it is down to business and the rest because I know she feels that. And because I don't want to get grouchy with her. She is not just a dog, she is my freedom and my protection and I know I will get back what I out in to her. Not unlike a horse, to get the best out, you have to work hard to put the right stuff in. You don;t want something that does a knee jerk reaction, you want something that gives you a considered response. With a dog this intelligent and sizeable, you need the best all the time.

 

[khplaw]

Re: "Issues"

I'm just getting out of this phase myself! Dreading round 2..

I completely agree with all of you, stock up on the single malt, practice NILIF and outstubborn her every step of the way! Without losing patience, of course. That's the only thing that worked for me.

ROUND TWO? There's a round TWO!!! :lolbangtable:

 

[NeSaxena]

Re: "Issues"

ROUND TWO? There's a round TWO!!! :lolbangtable:

Oh yeah there is! I've been told by my "well-wishing-friends" here at the forum, that there's DEFINITELY a round 2 coming up - at about 2 years old.

I'm going to take a long vacay and leave Boone with my hubby.

 

[khplaw]

Re: "Issues"

You grab the sunblock and lounger chairs and I'll bring the adult beverages and sunburn treatment!