Honest opinions regarding litter vs no litter at all

[teodora]

Nik: same here, the pressure is ridiculous and it has exactly the opposite effect on me. I can't go to a pet shop and ask about a long lead without receiving "strong suggestions" to fix them instead of whatever train tool I want to buy lol. Some "professionals" even tried to sold the idea that once fixed "they wont do anything" and they'll just sleep all day on the couch lmao - so most owners probably don't want a dog that's alive, breathing, moving... making sounds. Poor Jack's balls are a global issue, with passers by pointing at them and I need to justify: he's a male u know... they're born like this.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[gilles]

Nik: same here, the pressure is ridiculous and it has exactly the opposite effect on me. I can't go to a pet shop and ask about a long lead without receiving "strong suggestions" to fix them instead of whatever train tool I want to buy lol. Some "professionals" even tried to sold the idea that once fixed "they wont do anything" and they'll just sleep all day on the couch lmao - so most owners probably don't want a dog that's alive, breathing, moving... making sounds. Poor Jack's balls are a global issue, with passers by pointing at them and I need to justify: he's a male u know... they're born like this. Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

exactly i am not sure when this whole neutering propaganda started but for me dogs should not be altered just to suit the owner's mood....there must be a more valid reason to fix a dog.

 

[Nik]

Exactly and we are barred from a lot of places, classes, activities, and groups we might want to join because he is unfixed. You would think that having balls makes him some sort of uncontrollable scary monster maniac from the reactions we get which is ridiculous because he is actually pretty wonderful and well behaved.

 

[Boxergirl]

It's been my experience that the vast majority of pet owners in the US are not responsible enough to have unaltered pets. I think that the people that post on this board are largely the exception to that statement. That sounds rather judgmental I'm sure, but I worked many years in rescue. Animal rescue, not just dogs and not just pure breeds. I've held unwanted pups, kittens, and bunnies as they were euthanized. Perfectly healthy baby animals. Not just mixed breeds either. Just unwanted and there's not enough room for all of them. I may not agree with a rescue requiring the puppies to be altered so young, but I do understand it. Most people, even if they sign a contract, can't be depended upon to follow through. Perhaps it's different in other countries. I think it's easy to assume that just because we (generally speaking) are responsible, other people are too. I've not really found that to be true, unfortunately.

 

[marke]

I would worry about the accuracy of studies that are funded from anyone/organization that profits off neutering/spaying operations. It kind of means they have a vested interest and are not at all unbiased. Anecdotal advice at least is based on personal experience but given the small sample size and other conditions that could effect outcome also not entire applicable on a grander scheme... idk the neuter/spay decision is such a tricky one. It seems like there are so many risks but then there are risks to not doing it as well and of course the societal pressure is ridiculous (at least around where I live).

it's become obvious to me my "dog world" is different than most of the folks on this board ...... i don't understand yours , and you don't understand mine ........i have vets i can trust , i've known them for a very long time .... at any given time you can pull in their parking lot and see license plates from 6 different states , more than just i trust them ..... i have never been approached by a vet to spay or neuter one of my dogs .... i have never been asked by a vet what shots my dogs had or was told what they needed , they ask what they can do for me .... i've seen at least 5 different vets this year alone .... i am wrong , i've had 2 bitches with mammary cancer , when they removed the tumors they advised i spay them , 2 separate vets told me the survival rate was made better by spaying them after they had mammary cancer ..... i had a male with chronic prostate infection , after treating him for a year they advised i neuter him ..... and it worked ......i haven't got a clue where most of you folks are coming from on the vet issues , i have no experience there ...... when someone disagrees with me on health issues i've dealt with ,they're not disagreeing with me , they are disagreeing with what these folks have told me , and shown me over the last 25yrs . i'm not alone on what i think of these vets ..... here's a cleveland plain dealer article from 10yrs ago ....... there is no embellishment in this article , i tried to find the original article but couldn't , for some reason this CAO site had it Esquire Caucasians Articles

North Ridgeville -- His patients come from down the street and thousands of miles away -- some by private jet -- for treatment at what must surely be the Cleveland Clinic for pets....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................."One day someone came in and pointed out that there were cars from eight different states in our parking lot," Hutchison said. "And that is not unusual."

 

[teodora]

From what I've seen here, there are 2 main categories of owners who shouldn't have a dog full stop, altered or not. 1st category is the one expecting the dog to be a nice piece of furniture fitting the couch color: if the poor pup manifests any animal behaviour he's doomed. Poor creature cant even poo without waves of disapprovals and without being disinfected and parfumed and a pink ribbon fixed pretty on his butt... The other category - junk yard dogs owners, quite the opposite. They get a dog and leave it chained somewhere because "it's a dog" - it's outrageous to let the dog live around them, it's like inviting the cows in bed: smelly, dirty, full of germs, yuck! The sad part is that they don't even understand what's wrong with their approach...

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[teodora]

Marke, I see where ure coming from but at least in NZ there's a cultural trend: everybody minds everyone's business: since I probably look like a clueless young pansy (even if im not young nor pansy) all vets and shops assistants offer their vast experience with cropping dogs parts - solicited or not. Also, I had outraged strangers asking me what the heck am I doing with so much dog and "what do I need them for". That's just because in their view dogs are either working (farms) or pretty tiny purse pooches. And I can't squash the neos in my purse - so I don't fit the label.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[Nik]

Marke, I see where ure coming from but at least in NZ there's a cultural trend: everybody minds everyone's business: since I probably look like a clueless young pansy (even if im not young nor pansy) all vets and shops assistants offer their vast experience with cropping dogs parts - solicited or not. Also, I had outraged strangers asking me what the heck am I doing with so much dog and "what do I need them for". That's just because in their view dogs are either working (farms) or pretty tiny purse pooches. And I can't squash the neos in my purse - so I don't fit the label. Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

I'm on the other side of the world here in California and I have had much the same experience as Teodora including the judgement about why I need such a big dog... And Diesel isn't even all that big at only 75 lbs. There seems to be some stereo type that if you are a woman (especially a small 5 ft woman who always wears dresses and wears heels more often than not) you should automatically have some froo froo purse dog... I am sooo not a purse dog kind of girl. I don't know why but my whole life I have always preferred the larger dogs. My mom, on the other hand, loves her little purse dogs and can't at all wrap her mind around why I would want something I can't carry around with me like it's an accessory.

 

[Nik]

Also great observation Teodora... it could be that our experience is shaped more based on how we look and other people's assumptions about us. Maybe if I was a big huge guy I would have a completely different experience even in my same location.

 

[teodora]

Nik - exactly. To be honest, I also had small dogs before and they've been just as much if not more trouble. If any of my large dogs would have the energy and determination of a small breed, I'd be way out of my high heels ... Beside it, my Jack is a pretty shiny city boy in a black suit with a white tie - he complements my girly girl dresses. He's sniffing poop on the street from time to time but its just a detail lol...

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[Joao M]

Nik and Teodora,
I think it might be a paternalist issue. They see elegant young ladies with big dogs and immediately want to "guide" the way you keep them. Or it is simple fear for big dogs and you not being able to handle them. I understand that is annoying.
It could also just be a cultural thing IF the majority of company (as opposed to working - farm, hunting, etc) dogs are neutered in US and NZ. I read that it is very common in the US to have spay/neuter contracts when a dog is bought from a breeder. I have also read (in another US forum) opinons saying that not having such a contract is irresponsiible on the breeders side...I was amazed when I read this

From a cultural point of view this is an interesting discussion because I come from 3rd country as regards you two and a different culture (anglo-saxon vs latin heritage).
In my country I would say the vast majority of the dogs are intact. As regards the bitches I would say 50/50 perhaps.
We do not have spay/neuter contracts to the best of my knowledge. If they exist, the number is totally marginal.
The exception are dogs/bitches adopted from shelters: they are always neutered/spayed or under a contract to spay/neuter at appropriate age (understandable IMO).
So people are used to seeing intact dogs and deal with intact dogs. I have only been asked once in my life if I was going to neuter my dog and the question came from a lady that had 4 adopted dogs from a shelter. Having neutered dogs was her reality

 

[gilles]

as jao said this concept of neutering differs from country or region to region...you dont neuter or spay a CAO , i got CAO s for what they are extreme dogs in their love and their protection i ts not good to alter them..in their homeland nobody neuters a CAO. i guess this should go for mastiff breeds, these are not couch dogs they need to be outside performing their duties, such dogs should have a job to to do and be useful its better for their psychological and physical decvelopment.

 

[Nik]

gilles - Mine is most definitely not a couch dog. He loves being active and having something to focus on. Do you think that altering (even after 18 months) effects their psychology? I hadn't thought so much about that side of things. If so the age one should wait until would possibly need to be raised from that side of things. The physical growth seems to stop long before they reach full mental maturity.

 

[gilles]

after puberty he will have minimal side effects so 18 months is good. but if you have no valid reason to do it just don't do it.

 

[gilles]

as far as physical development 18 months is ok. minimal psychological and behavioral effects were seen when neutering few month after puberty.

 

[ruby55]

Some of the breeders/show people we know will absolutely not let their males breed naturally. They are positive is changes their temperament, & they get randy. I personally have never seen this result, & I've been in the business of puppies & breeding for years. However I've dealt with goldens & labs, which might or might not make a difference. I agree that breeding can be pretty dangerous for your brood; stuck puppies, c-sections complications, infections...I wouldn't do it just for those reasons. When you factor in all of the health testing that should be done before breeding, then raising the pups & finding them homes...there's really not a benefit to your dogs.

 

[dpenning]

I have not read this whole thread but did want to offer one thought. I had Emma altered at 10 months because in the environment we live in three is no way I could protect her if she went into heat. I saw you said you live I. The country with unaltered farm dogs and that is my scenario as well. I do not crate my dogs as such. Their "crate" is the laundry room with a doggie door to the outside fenced yard. It is a 4' farm fence that none of mine go over but I know the neighbors dogs do and would if Emma went into heat.

Given you already experienced trying to keep your entire male away from her through one cycle you know how difficult that can be. Much less the neighbors dogs. Unless I was going to breed for a,specific reason and do it correctly I don't think I would do it at all and would alter the females for everyone's quality of life.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[gilles]

Some of the breeders/show people we know will absolutely not let their males breed naturally. They are positive is changes their temperament, & they get randy. I personally have never seen this result, & I've been in the business of puppies & breeding for years. However I've dealt with goldens & labs, which might or might not make a difference. I agree that breeding can be pretty dangerous for your brood; stuck puppies, c-sections complications, infections...I wouldn't do it just for those reasons. When you factor in all of the health testing that should be done before breeding, then raising the pups & finding them homes...there's really not a benefit to your dogs.

breeding a CAO is not done before 2 years old..temperament will not change, in fact by that time he has a very stable temperament and this is when you can teach him attack and protectioin although this is absolutely not necessary... but after breeding at 2 years old physical changes will happen both ale and female will experience head jaw development (grow in size)..although this might not be documented but it is very noticeable with CAO's

 

[teodora]

but after breeding at 2 years old physical changes will happen both ale and female will experience head jaw development (grow in size)..although this might not be documented but it is very noticeable with CAO's

- so this development will happen after 2 years anyway or does breeding have an impact (for females I suppose, I don't see it having a physical impact on male)?

 

[gilles]

- so this development will happen after 2 years anyway or does breeding have an impact (for females I suppose, I don't see it having a physical impact on male)?

CAO grow in stature until 1.5 years and continue to grow in bulk until 3 years to reach the final size for males and 2 to 2.5 years for females but head size start growing tremendously starting a bit before one year old for for males and females. breeding is done at around 2 years especially for females to allow time for physical growth of the body to be completed. however it seems like breeding itself will have an effect particularly on head and jaw size, it was observed that breeding stimulates head growth for both males and females.