Corso raised TOTALLY WRONG! PLEASE READ AND HELP!

[goatnipples2002]

Ordered basket ultra size 6 and a monster coupler should be here weds.

It seems a few ppl got hung up on the word "dominance" but its no different than a relationship with our kids. U tell them to do something and u expect them to do it. Thats the same "dominance" im speaking about. Pack order is EVERYTHING to pack animals.

 

[DennasMom]

I agree with the basket muzzle over the 'funny' type, too... we had a 'funny' version for our bulldog mix, and it kept him from being able to pant, which for any short nosed dog is not a good thing. Very uncomfortable for the dog. The basket muzzles let the dog pant and take treats all safe and much more comfortable (assuming they fit well and aren't pushing on the eyes).

I'd also opt to keep the dog tied to you and not allowed any unsupervised time outside the crate for the first few days. Unsupervised time in the yard would just be continuing his un-structured behaviors... and I think structure, rules, boundaries and limitations are what he NEEDS right now. He needs a sense of purpose and belonging... and being WITH his new people more will help him find that quicker.

When working with our 'bully' bulldog rescue, we screwed big eye-bolts into some studs in the living room, and used those as tie-outs... not as safe as a crate (our other dog could still get to close to him)... but it did allow us to move away from him to a safe distance that he couldn't reach, if we needed to.

Since Tig knows you all already, I expect it will be a very quick transition for him.

He'll test the rules, I'm sure... but I'm guessing one or two "reminders" that the rules ARE the rules will be enough for him to relax into that lower position in the pack that you have in mind for him.

I'm convinced the pack dominance theory is a thing of the past, too... but that doesn't mean I threw out the pieces of the theory that worked for me. Keep reading, learning and applying what works is my mantra! (and if you find something doesn't work... try something else). I expect Denna to do what I ask her to do, when I ask her to do it - but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate her opinion (especially as regards to strangers approaching the house).

 

[goatnipples2002]

Are u all saying pack dominance is the same as pack order?

I have no room in my house for a crate.If hes in the house he will be muzzled. I'm going to assess his level of aggression, but I hope the 2 weeks of quarantine calmed down his jealousy. I cant really tie him to me. My only option for being in the house is muzzled until he learns his place.

I don't see how being outside will reinforce any negative behavior....hes never been able to hang out and enjoy the sun, wind, birds and all other outdoor sensations.

 

[teodora]

he can still be destructive with the muzzle: jump on couches/break things and so. Don't underestimate how big he is and how zoomy CCs can get. About the tie: I wouldn't be able to move at all without my dog's permission if I tie him to me, so I get your point. My 2 cents - I think leaving him outside is a good option as long as he doesn't feel excluded/isolated and so it doesn't increase his frustration. Try to make an effort to walk him for as long as you can and make sure he doesn't have plenty of energy left for getting into trouble in the first weeks.

 

[goatnipples2002]

Not worried about him jumping or being crazy in the house hes fairly calm....until the doorbell or someone knocks lol. He's just been neglected via no exercise and too much negative attention (tug of war). I walk my female atleast 3 times a week and the loop we do is 3 miles. I will be walking the both of them every night. If u read my original list of what went wrong I'm the opposite of ALL those...probably why my girl can chill in my front yard unattended for hours. No chasing, no barking, no running off.

I'm only concerned about his jealousy in his last house but I wonder if new home new perspective or will he apply the same behaviour towards my son as his last home?

He will never be isolated because I have my female...his main play date since he was baby.

 

[SG1]

HELL NO IT IS NOT OUT DATED. Is it a method that has been around for decades? Yes, and it is still very effective. A car that is fifty years old and in good running condition can get you from point A to point B just as fast and safe as one that is a year old. If the dominance method is used correctly and the operative word here is correctly it is more effective than the quote unquote NEW METHODS.

As far as the articles posted I don't have time to shred there thoughts on the dominance system. I will say that nowhere in the animal kingdom were the animal is living in a social group is the Alpha, Leader etc applying the NILIF system in it's social group neither in captivity or in the wild. No where in the animal kingdom is any member of a social group using "HIGH VALUE TREATS to bribe others to let them be the leader. No were in the animal kingdom does the ALPHA, LEADER etc take the pack, pride heard etc out for a run to tire everybody out so they will be more compliant.
In the animal kingdom the biggest baddest and or the strongest controls the social group period dot.

The above statement applies even to animals that don't live in any type of social group. A male and female tiger for example, who only stay together a week or two only for mating. If another male happens along during that time then the biggest, baddest strongest male will get to mate. The other will have to go into the jungle and masturbate. They do not negotiate.

Goatnipple2002 I believe you have the right idea on how to train your dog. Just be wary because he has bitten someone with no repercussions.

 

[teodora]

In the animal kingdom the biggest baddest and or the strongest controls the social group period dot.

oh well.... then I am disqualified from owning anything else than a chihuahua! :scared2:

 

[karennj]

The dominance/alpha theory of the wolf pack was based on observations of wolves forced together. It was flawed and those articles if you care to read them will explain that. You can ignore science if you want, your dog, your life. I choose to have a teamwork/family type relationship with my dog. The police dogs are as some of the most amazing, driven animals and even they don't require that nonsense. Be in control, set the rules, be consistent but have fun. Why have a dog if you can't enjoy the relationship (on both sides). Think of it as a family not a pack. Just like you mentioned with kids. You have to be firm and constant but you have to show love and have fun as well. You are going to be great for this dog.

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[goatnipples2002]

WATCH THIS! Heres a video that shows a litter of 8wk pups establishing pack order. Its got some BS fluff but got video.

 

[SG1]

No not at all todora you obviously are able to own something more than a chihuahua. That comment was referring to training methods.

As for you karennj Thank you for posting those articles this is the second time I've read them and there still wrong. The dominance method of training is much more than a theory. I have posted video evidence of my dominate system working. Maybe you did not have your glasses on when you viewed the video or perhaps did not see the videos at all. if you would like I will post them or provide a link upon your request. To remind those who saw it and inform those who didn't, the video has a twelve week old female bull-mastiff along with other very serious adult dogs laying down next to there owners and not trying to bother anybody. I have read here on this forum where owners can't do this after after three years of using the "SCIENCE" based methods as you call it. The last statement was not intended to call out anybody just to compare and contrast the different methods. If this is what is passing for training and control of a dog, you just keep it and I will follow mother natures rules and use what works.

You mentioned wolves forced together which makes the study invalid. What happened after they were forced together, once the hierarchy was settled and they started matting and established a family unit? Neither you nor the article investigates this far. I will tell you what happen IMOP. They established a pack leader according to wolf lore/nature and functioned as a family unit. The basic premise is still the same Alpha and subordinates and life goes on. Let me give you a real world example. Wolves and coyotes are deadly enemies, a wolf will kill a coyote on site. These two enemies are being "forced together" in the north eastern part of the United States due to human encroachment. The wolves are not killing the coyotes any more they are mating with them.

Karennj you seem to imply that my dogs and I don't have any fun. Where did you get that information from, an article on the internet? My dogs nd I have alot of fun before during and after training and I will match my relationship with my dogs with anybody on the planet. Even yours.

 

[karennj]

I would love to see whatever articles or videos you have to share. I have spent a decent amount of time researching the new vs. old behavior modification theory as I worked through issues with my Dane but I am always open minded. You can pm whatever you have to me if you like. I personally found the more recent information to make sense. Using counter conditioning/operant conditioning, classical conditioning and desensitizing as a way to modify behavior seems to create less fallout than forcing a dog into submission. If your method of training can be executed without losing trust or creating negative associations then great. The fun comment was directed to the article posted originally that basically stated which ever dog is not considered the alpha needs to be ignored for fear or messing up the "pack order". It was not directed at you. If you cannot show love, affection or equality to your dogs why have them? It would be a real shame if anyone followed that advice. If one dog is naturally more assertive, feeding them in a specific order, not holding or showing love to one or giving the "alpha" the preferred resting spot is not going to make any difference. I believe when dogs are in a multi dog household they have takes and gives and this happens naturally and the owner does not need to do anything to support who is the natural "leader". I have seen the "leader" role switch multiple times in one day depending on what room, object or person is involved.

As far as your training method is concerned, I have yet to understand what methods you actually use. Apparently you don't use nilf, treats or exercise. Who knows, we may actually agree on training methods if it was clear how exactly you train new behaviors and correct undesirable ones. I have seen a few times on this forum that people should be the leader but then no instruction is given on how to do that. I would love to hear how you would handle this dog coming into the house. I might even agree

 

[SG1]

Karennj please be advised any comments to you or any other member is not to be taken as a personal attack. If you see any quotations, bold type, sarcastic comment etc it is only an attempt at humor, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'm just not an icon or LOL user. I will treat your posts to me with the same regard.

Due to my limited computer skills I will simply direct you guys to the thread for further reading: Great Dane-Dog Aggression page six.

I do enjoy our occasional joust karennj and look forward to the next one LOL.

 

[karennj]

Oh gosh that is an old one. I'll have to go back and look over it again.

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[karennj]

And I'm still curious, how do you be a leader? What approach would you take to teach sit and come? What things would you do when bringing in a dog with this background to a home with another cc and kids? I'm not bring fresh, I am genuinely interested. It would be helpful to know where your coming from when reading your posts regarding behavioral issues. If you don't want to respond here there is a dominance vs positive thread that occurred recently. Would love to get your insight.

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[goatnipples2002]

Update. Tig rode with me on my route. Pulled up to a house with wild barking dogs and he didn't bark back...i thought he would. He did respect the distance between him and my niece. Introduced him to the backyard. Going on a family walk now.

 

[goatnipples2002]

The video i forgot to post doh!


Watch "Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Dog" on YouTube
Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Dog - YouTube

 

[karennj]

Hoping all goes well! I know you are familiar with the dog but you may still have a honeymoon period where he does not act like himself until he gets more comfortable. This can last week's to months, but usually is a couple week's.

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[goatnipples2002]

Introduced my kids to Tig and he growled (muzzle was on). So we went for a walk and it went pretty good. About halfway I let my oldest walk the 2 dogs. My younger 2 were walking directly in front of him and no growls. My oldest even got him to sit a few times. Directly after she rubbed his head saying good boy and no growls. So it went from 100% growling to alot less. He still does and i dont like it, but i believe we had some progress.

 

[karennj]

Remember things just got turned upside down for him so try not to push him into any situations too fast if possible. Go slow. Keep us posted on his progress.

 

[goatnipples2002]

I had my oldest daughter feed Tig a piece of pizza after I gave him one and I had her give him a chicken liver after I gave him one. That was a good sign for me. I needed to see how far my kids could go with him and I believe we did it in a very controlled and safe manner....psych major lol.

I took them for a night walk on my regular 3 mile loop. I used a coupler and a short leash. I let them go off the leash and was truly amazed. Not sure if Tig is super out of shape and slow or Hazel is quicker but she lead/drug him the whole time lol. I make my dogs sit at every curb...both listened pretty good. They both stayed by my side but I'm sure Hazel had more to do with that than me.All in all a great 1st day.

They're camping out side until Tig no longer growls at my kids.