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Color genetics

amw42286

New Member
Okay all, new here and proudly owned by a few corsos... While I feel intelligent in some areas, genetics and biology are not one of them... Therefore hoping someone can help me in understanding what colors propogate other colors.
I know the basics black x black will negate black pups, black x blue should negate a split litter... I know (purely because we have an offspring of this breeding) blue brindle x black negates blacks and brindles... So I guess I am curious as to how to get formentino, carbon and blue brindles? I vaguely remember the square with Bb and BB and such from biology but layman's terms would be phenomenal. Thanks all.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Canine coat color genetics is more complicated than the basic 4square charts we did in biology in high school.

I'm not sure if they've figured out the genetics to TEST for when it comes to formentino, but its a function of the dilute genes, as is the blue-brindles.

First off you have to understand that there's two types of Black. Dominant black and recessive black, each controlled by a different gene set.

If a dog is dominant black (K), he may be KK (in which case EVERY pup he he produces will ALSO be black), or Kk (in which case he carries the non-solid black gene).

Recessive black is part of the a gene and I'll get to it in a minute.

Brindle is also a function of K, and is listed as k[SUP]br[/SUP]. A dog who is Kk[SUP]br[/SUP] will appear black but can produce brindle pups. A dog who is k[SUP]br[/SUP]k is brindle but can produce non-brindle pups. And a dog who is k[SUP]br[/SUP]k[SUP]br[/SUP] is brindle and will only produce brindle pups.

Liver is the B gene. B is NOT liver (and will show black hairs unless otherwise modified), and b is liver and will not show black hairs or black leather (liver color). So a dog who's BB will show black hairs and will only produce dogs who show black. A dog who's Bb will show black hairs but can produce dogs who do NOT show black hairs. And a dog who's bb will not show black hairs (or leather) and will only produce pups who do not show black.

Ok, then there's the a gene set. a[SUP]y[/SUP] is "fawn" (may appear anything from red to pale gold controlled by a variety of genes not all of which are understood). a[SUP]w[/SUP] is "wolf sable" sometimes called "wild sable". a[SUP]t[/SUP] produces the black & tan color set. a is recessive black. And they are dominant in the order I listed them. A dog who's a[SUP]y[/SUP]a[SUP]t[/SUP] is "fawn" but can produce black and tan pups. A dog who's a[SUP]y[/SUP]a is "fawn" but can produce recessive black pups.

Those are the basics of canine coat color. From there on out pretty much everything else is cause by modifier genes.

Dilute is D and d. D means the dog is not dilute. d means the dog is. Dilute is what changes black hairs to blue and liver to isabella, or turns a "fawn" dog into cream. A dog who's Dd will show the un-modified black hairs and leather but can produce blue pups (or blue brindle, or formantino). A dog who's bb is dilute and will only produce dilutes.

The G gene has to do with greying. This produces a dog who's born black, with black leather, but who's black hairs turn grey as the dog matures. G is greying, g is not.

Merle produces those funky patterns that get the collies into trouble, its M for merle and m for non-merle.

T is ticking, T[SUP]r[/SUP] is roan, t is neither.

Black masks are E[SUP]m[/SUP], E or e is no black mask. E is sable (sprinkling of black hairs all over the body), e is "clear red" and means the dog shows no black hairs at all but will still have black leather.

And I'm not even going to try to explain white.....not to mention some of the other weird modifies that may be REALLY breed specific!
 
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ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
To further attempt to answer your question:

Blue brindle is a dog who is brindle (k[SUP]br[/SUP]) and also dilute (dd).

Formentino is less studied, but from what I know, its a dog who is fawn (a[SUP]y[/SUP]) and sable (E or E[SUP]m[/SUP]) and dilute (dd).

These dogs may also carry other colors, but that would be the genetics of what they appear to be.
 

amw42286

New Member
Thank you that is actually rather helpful and even I understood that so kudos to you ruthcatrin.... I guess I was just thinking about it earlier as to why a brindle x formentino (if brindle had no previous formy in lines) would not produce formy where as fawn x brindle in the great Dane world I've seen has produced a fawn and brindle litter
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Cause the dilute genes that cause the formentino are recessive, so even if the stud was formantino if the bitch doesn't carry it then none of the pups will be blue in any form. Now ALL the pups from that pairing will carry dilute and could potentially produce blues if bred to the right dog.

For a brindle to produce non-brindle pups the brindle parent has to carry the "k" gene aka non-solid black, as brindle is dominant over fawn.

Glad I didn't totally blow your brain. My knowledge is hard learning self taught as I happen to own a dog who (based on his apperance) should be one genetic set, but genetic testing says he's not. Apparently this isn't uncommon in the TM breed, they think theres another function of the "a" gene set that'll explain it, if they can ever find it!
 

amw42286

New Member
Gotcha, essentially was thinking about potential pairings for our brindle girl, she is a result of a black x blue brindle breeding and for this reason I believe I am going to opt for a blue stud when the time comes.
 

E1kpo

Well-Known Member
Grey colour ,not blue.It doesn't exist in Cane Corso blue,only the great dane has blue colour,just use the word grey :D
Isn't so hard.This should help a lot,it's in italian but i think you can use google translate :D
1236884_295965330544386_1892833719_n.jpg
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Grey colour ,not blue.It doesn't exist in Cane Corso blue,only the great dane has blue colour,just use the word grey :D
Isn't so hard.This should help a lot,it's in italian but i think you can use google translate :D
View attachment 45155

The USA standard calls it blue, not grey, and since its caused by the same set of genes that cause blue in Danes it's stupid to refer to it as grey anyway.
 

E1kpo

Well-Known Member
Sorry for double post,well in italy we call it grigio, aka grey..Well another thing to change in standard then :)

Sorry 2nd part if I'm so ''stupid" to call it grey then :)
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Its the exact same set of genes as causes the color in Danes, if you're going to call one blue then they both are. Especially since "grey" has a different genetic set that IS referred to as grey. To be fair the FCI standard says grey.
 
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ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Oops, I'm wrong, the AKC standard does say grey rather than blue. Which like I said is stupid, its a function of the dilute genes, just like every other breed that DOES use the term blue....
 

E1kpo

Well-Known Member
Well the C.C. is an italian breed,here in italy well call the great dane's one blue,corso grey :)
 

E1kpo

Well-Known Member
I thought that the genes that gave the blue color to the great dane were the only ones in that kind ,I never stop learning :D
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Nope, that blueish greyish color on a dog, that ALSO has grey nose/eye rims/leather, is a function of the dilute gene (see above posts). It turns black hairs and black leather to "blue" and the dog is born with blue fur and greyish leather. And its found in a HUGE number of breeds actually. We have at least one member on here with a blue and tan Tibetan Mastiff for example.

Now there is a "Grey" gene set (I also mentioned it above), but those dogs are born with black fur and black leather, and as they grow up their black fur turns a grey color, but their nose/eye rims/leather stays black.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
I will say that they (the researchers who investigate dog genes) are pretty sure that there IS at least one more gene set that controls a different form of dilute (because there are a couple breeds that appear to be "partially" dilute, for example dilute coloring on the body but still having a black mask), they're currently calling it "I" for intensity, but its not been mapped in dogs at all. Afghan hounds for example: http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html#intense , it may be the cause of the "pale gold with black leather" color that you see in some genes for example. But yah, the "blue" thats seen in both Danes and Corso's is the dilute gene mentioned above.
 
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E1kpo

Well-Known Member
I will say that they (the researchers who investigate dog genes) are pretty sure that there IS at least one more gene set that controls a different form of dilute (because there are a couple breeds that appear to be "partially" dilute, for example dilute coloring on the body but still having a black mask), they're currently calling it "I" for intensity, but its not been mapped in dogs at all. Afghan hounds for example: http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html#intense , it may be the cause of the "pale gold with black leather" color that you see in some genes for example. But yah, the "blue" thats seen in both Danes and Corso's is the dilute gene mentioned above.
Ah okay thanks buddy you explained me it pretty well,it's complex but well it's pretty easy once you understand the rules of the ''game'' :)
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
It is complex, and a pain to keep straight sometimes....the fact that we just don't know what all the controlling genes are yet complicates it!
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
Gotcha, essentially was thinking about potential pairings for our brindle girl, she is a result of a black x blue brindle breeding and for this reason I believe I am going to opt for a blue stud when the time comes.
you would be better off to pair with a complimentary male regardless of color. Once of course your female has proven to be breed quality and passed health screenings. Breeding for color will not produce quality dogs although I am sure makes them "easier" to sell.
 

terzo corso

Well-Known Member
Amen to this...

you would be better off to pair with a complimentary male regardless of color. Once of course your female has proven to be breed quality and passed health screenings. Breeding for color will not produce quality dogs although I am sure makes them "easier" to sell.