Advice needed please

[Rogue]

Hi Everyone,

I have a 6 year old bull mastiff called Rogue. We rescued her about a year and a half ago. When we rescued her she had really bad mange and was underweight and someone had put diesel all over her so her coat was in a bad way. She also has arthritis and hip dysplasia. While she was being treated for that we discovered she has several severe allergies, she is allergic to most medication especially pain medication and anti-inflammatories so we have had to find another way to treat her arthritis and hip dysplasia, we are currently trying her with homeopathic treatments for her arthritis and this seems to be working brilliant for her, she is moving much more freely and don't appear to be in pain with her joints and she loves her walks. She also suffers with problems with her eyes and ears and suffers from cystitis when she is having an allergic reaction. She is on prescription dry dog food for her joints which we get from the vets, this also seems to be working well for her joints. While Rogues joints doesn’t seem to be bothering her now she is having problems with her eyes and ears! She has had an ulcer removed from one eye and now has another in the other eye and suffers from eye and ear infections.

Sorry for the long post but just wondering has anyone any advice or ideas/tips in ways we can treat/help Rogue? At the moment we are at the vets every week with her because her allergies are worse in the summer, so we are thinking she has an allergy to pollen too.The vet is treating her symptoms as they appear but we would like to get to the bottom of it to prevent Rogue getting these reactions. We are currently also trying different homeopathic treatments for her eyes and ears but nothing has worked as yet. She is the happiest girl and she doesn’t let any of her illnesses get her down but I hate seeing her when she's not well. We were thinking of trying a raw food diet but are afraid of taking her off her prescription food as it seems to really help her joints! Has anyone encountered similar problems? Any advice would be greatly appreciated as we have tried everything but she is still suffering from reactions.

Thanks a million,

Kate

 

[angelbears]

Rogue is very lucky to have such a wonderful family. I sure am sorry for all that ya'll have had to go through. I'm using a homeopathic vet for my boy. While he is not cured yet. I can say that working with a homeopathic vet has given him the most relief.

IMHO, I think a raw diet would be good for her and a little shocked that your homeopathic vet doesn't already have her on one. Even if you don't switch to raw, I would give raw chicken feet they are excellent for joint health.

I wish you and your baby the very best.

 

[DennasMom]

Someone else mentioned finding a local (as local as possible) honey to help with pollen allergies.

Rogue definitely is lucky to have found you. Glad she is a happy girl!!
Good luck with all the treatments.

 

[musicdeb]

I agree that raw diet will help and especially chicken feet. Sending healing vibes Rogue's way! Titan sends a big slobbery smooch!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Chicken feet for a natural joint supplement.

What is the food she's getting, food allergies might be a partial cause to what you're describing.

It definetly sounds like she's got a good home!

 

[Rogue]

Thanks for all the advice. Our vet has mentioned the raw food diet so we re thinking of putting her on that but she had so many problems with her joints before we put her on the food so are worried her joints will be bothering her again. She's on Hill's Prescription Diet j/d canine mobility. I'll definitely get local honey and try that as her allergies are worse in the summer, we think she'll also allergic to dust mites too so we're taking up all carpets in the house and constantly vacuuming the house! Is anyone using the raw food diet? Where would I find good information on feeding a raw food diet? I'm going to buy chicken feet and local honey today and see how she goes with that. She loves fish so she gets tuna or salmon weekly too because I heard omega is great for joints. We're bringing her back to the vets again next week for her weekly visit so Ill ask them what supplements we can give her for her joints when she's on the raw food diet. There are no purely homeopathic vets in our area but our vets use both homeopathic and conventional treatments and we are happy to try anything as long as it will make Rogue feel better. We are really trying to find a solution for her eye problems as we don't want her to have to undergo another eye operation as she don't do well at all under anaesthetic, the vet said they have never seen a dog take so long to come round after an anaesthetic as Rogue did.
To look at rogue you wouldn't think she had so many problems as she is the happiest most amazing girl ever and she loves everyone . She is a pure joy and loves nothing more than her food, couch and bed, although she prefers mine!! .
Thanks again for all the advice and words of encouragement, I cant believe I only found this site but I'm delighted I did .

 

[musicdeb]

There are a lot of raw feeders on the forum. Do a search for raw diet/raw food and you'll find a lot of posts. Titan has been on raw diet since 1st of March 2012. He had horrible skin allergies due to kibble. Generally, mastiffs are allergic to chicken and grains in the kibble. After almost 6 months on the raw diet, his skin has improved 98%.

I hope your vet doesn't discourage you from the raw diet, as most vets want you to buy their dog food because they can receive kick backs from the companies.

I also frequent this forum for raw feeding which helped me through the first couple of months of raw feeding but the most informative forum is the one we are both on right now. I hope that whatever route you take for Rogue that she does aok. She's such a beautiful girl!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

 

[ruthcatrin]

Bleh. No offense to you, but there aren't many people on here who like the Hills diets AT ALL.

Looking at the information on it the two big things are Omega 3/EPA, this is EASY to add to a dogs diet, and L-carnitine which helps with the digestion of various fatty acids. Then they say they control the calories to help control weight. NONE of this is a big deal to find elsewhere. If needed there are L-carnitine supplements for humans which likely could be used for dogs.

The Hills contains corn, soy, and a list of other grains, plus chicken, and chicken in particular is a common allergen, and the grains and soy aren't that unusual either (the vet would likely argue with that statement, but I know to many people who's dogs have issues with those....).

I don't see anything in the Hills that can't get gotten elsewhere, either through a better quality kibble or through a raw diet, either of which can be done while managing food allergies.

There are several of us here who feed raw. So ask away! Just to get us started, how much does she weigh, and is it a GOOD weight for her or does she need to gain/loose a few pounds? That information would be the bare minimum starting point for figuring raw.

 

[musicdeb]

Well said, Ruth!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Thanks musicdeb.

If she DOES have to undergo surgery again ask the vet about the Greyhound protocals. THEY WILL COST YOU MORE. When I had my Arty neutered (not a mastiff, approx weight 32lbs) the different drugs cost an extra $50, and I'm sure it goes up with the size of the dog. BUT, its a different drug combination which may be easier on her system.

 

[angelbears]

100% what Ruth said. Your Omega 3's is found in fresh fish which is part the raw diet or you can supplement with fish oil if you go with kibble.

 

[babyjoemurphy]

Rogue you have come to the right place!
First off Thank God for people like you, amazing!

If you need help, have a simple silly question or just want to ramble you are in the right place.
We adopted our guy 3 months ago, and quickly learned Murphy had food allergies from the awesome people on this forum. Within 3 weeks he was switched to chicken/grain free and he is doing great.

Vets do tend to push their products. There are many threads on here about food that will help you a lot. Some are long but each post has something to learn or a question you didn't think of

Good luck and keep us posted

 

[Rogue]

Thanks a million for all the advice. It was Rogue's previous vet that put her on the Hills, she seemed to be doing great on it, well good for her joints anyway. We assumed it was a very good food as the vet recommended it and it's expensive, so we thought we were paying for quality. The vets she sees now she's being seeing for a while and she has mentioned the raw food diet to us before but we were reluctant to change her food in case that caused her more problems. But since joining this forum I've read a lot about the raw food diet and we're definitely going to try it with Rogue. I'm going to go to butchers on Monday to try and source and price meat for her, what meat/cuts of meat should I ask them for? Would I also give her raw veg and pulses and what if any supplements will I give her too?

How do you start the raw food diet, do I introduce the raw food gradually? How do you know how much food to feed on the raw food diet? At the moment she's at a good weight, she weighs 42 kilo's. She did weigh 48 kilo's but she was a tad overweight at that!! So she has been on a diet, which she didn't like and which broke my heart when we started it because I had to restrict all her treats and she would just look at me with those big eyes looking for treats! But the extra weight was having an effect on her joints. Since she has lost the weight she is so much more active. I'd like to try and maintain her weight as it is as I think she's at the right weight for her at the moment.

Sorry for the questions, I'm sure I'll have a lot more when we're trying to get used to the raw food .

 

[angelbears]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]What most of the raw feeders on this forum follow is the prey model diet (also called Prey Model Raw or PMR). The eventual composition will be 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ. WAIT 4-6 weeks into the raw diet before organ meat is introduced and then do so slowly or you could be dealing with very soft, runny stools or even diarrhea. Fruits and vegetables are used by some as snacks, but many of us do not feed fruits and veggies at all, especially to dogs with skin problems.
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Most people start out with chicken; here in the US, it is one of the least expensive meats, and the bones are easier to digest than bones from other protein sources. It can take a while for a dog’s stomach acids to strengthen enough to handle some of the harder bones. Chicken backs and leg quarters are often introduced first, and then you will graduate slowly to more meaty pieces. If you do notice loose stools, you may want to remove the skin and the visible fat from the chicken for a while and then slowly add it back in as the poop firms up. Stay with the chicken for the first two to four weeks. Then add one more meat (preferably a red meat, such as pork or beef) gradually to the chicken meals. With each new meat source, don’t add a different new one for another two to four weeks, to be sure that your dog is handling the new meat without difficulty. The biggest mistake people make with the raw diet is trying to introduce new foods too quickly; sourcing the food becomes an addition!

Rogue’s poop will become your guide in this new adventure. Too much bone and the poop will be almost powdery; too much organ and it becomes loose. Don’t panic if you see tiny bone shards in the poop at first; it is very normal. Remember that the stomach acids are growing in strength, and you will see fewer and few bone bits as she progresses. Please remember, never NEVER give Rogue a cooked bone; they are too brittle and can cause problems. You also do not want to feed weight bearing bones (e.g., femurs)
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Start out feeding her 2-3% of her body weight and adjust as needed to take off or put on weight.
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More tips and suggestions to come.

Please don't hesitate to ask questions.

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---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You also asked about supplements; most feel that, on the PMR diet, supplements are not needed. Since Rogue is prone to hip and joint problems, you may want to give her a “natural” supplement of chicken feet; we give them as treats and our kids love them. Just be aware that you’ll need to include them as part of her 2-3% allotment of food, or she’ll be putting on more weight than you want her to have. Chicken feet are good sources of glucosamine, chondroitin, and collagen.
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Most people feel that a PMR diet should include no more than 50% of any one meat source. Depending on the availability, almost any meat can be fed, including squirrel, rabbit, or other game animals. If you have access to wild game, come to the board and ask; someone will give you the precautions.
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As an example of a daily diet for a fully transitioned dog, fed twice daily, today’s meals for Cane, who weighs about 160 pounds (~ 72 kg) consisted of ~ 0.7 kg of very lightly sautéed liver (still won’t eat it completely raw, even after a year) and for dinner he had leg quarters (again, ~0.7 kg). Tomorrow, he will again get the liver for breakfast (we serve all the organs for weekend breakfast) and for dinner, he will have pork ribs with some extra pork meat. For weekday breakfasts, we feed boneless meals, such as tripe, beef or pork chunks (cut from a roast or chops, saving the bone for human use in beans or soup), and hearts of pork, beef, chicken, duck, turkey, etc. Dinner meals usually include some bone with some added boneless meat. Again, follow the poop – if it is too runny, add more bone. If it is too powdery, add more meat.
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Good luck to you and Rogue. We are all rooting for you, and we hope your lives become easier.

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[angelbears]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You also asked about supplements; most feel that, on the PMR diet, supplements are not needed. Since Rogue is prone to hip and joint problems, you may want to give her a “natural” supplement of chicken feet; we give them as treats and our kids love them. Just be aware that you’ll need to include them as part of her 2-3% allotment of food, or she’ll be putting on more weight than you want her to have. Chicken feet are good sources of glucosamine, chondroitin, and collagen.
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif] [/FONT]
Most people feel that a PMR diet should include no more than 50% of any one meat source. Depending on the availability, almost any meat can be fed, including squirrel, rabbit, or other game animals. If you have access to wild game, come to the board and ask; someone will give you the precautions.
[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif] [/FONT]
As an example of a daily diet for a fully transitioned dog, fed twice daily, today’s meals for Cane, who weighs about 160 pounds (~ 72 kg) consisted of ~ 0.7 kg of very lightly sautéed liver (still won’t eat it completely raw, even after a year) and for dinner he had leg quarters (again, ~0.7 kg). Tomorrow, he will again get the liver for breakfast (we serve all the organs for weekend breakfast) and for dinner, he will have pork ribs with some extra pork meat. For weekday breakfasts, we feed boneless meals, such as tripe, beef or pork chunks (cut from a roast or chops, saving the bone for human use in beans or soup), and hearts of pork, beef, chicken, duck, turkey, etc. Dinner meals usually include some bone with some added boneless meat. Again, follow the poop – if it is too runny, add more bone. If it is too powdery, add more meat.
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Good luck to you and Rogue. We are all rooting for you, and we hope your lives become easier.

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[Rogue]

Thanks a million angelbears, I didn't have a clue where or how to start with the raw food or what types of meat to start Rogue on but thanks to all your information I'm far lees daunted by it all and now know where to start . I'm really hoping this will work for Rogue and help with her allergies. I'm going to source a butcher on Monday for the meat, have no access to wild game so will need to get all from butchers. Thanks again for everyone's advice

 

[musicdeb]

Well said, angelbears! I couldn't have said it better. I hope you made a word document of that post for future postings on feeding raw. Excellent post!

 

[angelbears]

Thanks Deb! I wish I could take credit but my weekend forum partner gets it.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I think the only three adjustments I'd make to Angelbears statement:

Weight bearing bones--chicken legs are fine, as are other poultry, Pork legs are fine, and I know people who've fed goat legs no problem, but by the time you get to something the size of a cow (or larger) those leg bones are REALLY hard so definetly skip them then.

Chicken--I think in Rogue's case I'd recommend starting with turkey if you can get the various parts needed, just because she may have a chicken allergy. There are alot of dogs who are allergic to chicken in kibble form who are fine with it in raw form BUT in this case I'd suggest giving her stomach and system a break from it just in case it is the allergen thats causing her problems.

Organs/changing meat--in general most dogs take at least a month to adjust to the point where they can tolerate raw organs/changing meat type, BUT it does vary from dog to dog. Where Rogue is older and has issues it wouldn't surprise me if it takes longer, but I've also known dogs who adjust in very little time, a week or two. What you're looking for is nice firm poo. When you can feed an intact piece of turkey (skin on, bone in) in the appropriate proportions and her system handles it well then you can look at slowly introducing new meat and/or organs.


For a quick breakdown, you said she weighs 42k, so your starting point will be 1.05k of food a day (thats 2.5% of 42k). Thats the STARTING point. If after a couple weeks it looks like she's gaining or loosing weight that you don't feel is appropriate then you decrease, or increase, the total amount by a bit. At first, like Angel said, this is going to be strictly meat and bone. In general you don't want to feed more than 10% of the daily intake in bone a day however especially at first you may need to feed alot more than that to keep her system from completely freaking and even then she may have diarrhea anyway. Once you can reduce the bone intake to that 10% daily and her poo is nice and solid you can move on to the next step of new meat/organs. Once she's up to speed you're looking for an estimated daily intake where 10% is bone, 10% is organ and the rest is meat, but keep in mind it varies a bit from dog to dog. If you're having issues we can help you diagnose and figure out where to adjust if the holistic vet can't.

Supplements: omega 3/EPA is an extremely easy to find supplement here in the states, made for both dogs and humans. In general the human versions are fine for dogs but watch out for soy content as some dogs have issues with it. Chicken feet, if you can get them (check local ethnic and farmers markets), are an easy natural form of chondroiton and glucosamine, otherwise there are a huge number of supplements on the market for that too. L-carnitine, if your holistic vet thinks she needs a supplement in this ask her to recommend one as I've never looked closely at them.

 

[angelbears]

While generally Ruth and I are on the same page I can't agree with starting with turkey. A turkey's bones are much more dense than most other poultry. Most transitioning dogs' stomach acid is not strong enough to handle it easily. If you do want to start with turkey I highly suggest using only turkey necks and tails for your bone supply.

I understand the logic behind not starting with chicken. However most agree that is with processed chicken and it is rare for a dog to be allergic to raw chicken. Besides if you are going to use chicken feet as a supplement for her joints then Rogue is going to have chicken in her diet anyhow.

Because of Rogue's age, health and being kibble feed for years I still suggest staying away from weight bearing or larger bones except that of small poultry. With the concerns of pain medication and anesthesia I personally would not want to chance a broken tooth. There are plenty of bones to choose from with less risk. Like pork, beef or just about any ribs from any animal, tails and feet too. You will find others after you become addicted to finding food for your baby. We all do. Use common sense and go with what you think Rogue can handle.

Either way, starting with chicken or turkey, I don't think you can go wrong.