16 month male Corso aggression towards my male Golden

[DadOfVino]

So, back in December I posted a thread (13 month old Corso showed temporary aggression to my Golden). This was a temporary outburst over a couple day's time when we were dog sitting a couple of family member dogs. Once those pups went home, our house went back to normal.

Our Corso is now 16 months and our Golden is 15 months (neither neutered at this time) . For the last couple of weeks or more, my Corso will get a an attitude and go after our Golden. He pins him down and is snarling, etc, but no blood has ever been drawn.

Here is what I have observed:
- our Golden is maturing. While he used to be very submissive, he now doesn't back down. He doesn't give up a toy easily like before, etc. He won't break a stare when the Corso looks at him.
- These boys love each other and play together great - 99% of the time. They will literally be in the back yard (we have over an acre) playing chase, wrestling and having a blast. They will come in the house exhausted and lay down together (literally leaning against each other) and nap. Then an hour later, something will catch my Corso's attention when looking at the Golden and he will stiffen up. The body language is pretty clear, and within 10 seconds he will lunge at the Golden and pin him down, growling, etc. I am working intervening sooner or using the 'leave it' command when I see them lock eyes, but sometime unable to be right on it.
- They eat in the same room and have never had a resource guarding issues. We learned awhile ago that giving them bones or chew toys together just does not work, but regular meals are fine.
- When I break them up, I either throw water on them or grab the Corso's collar (when I have a clear, safe shot) and pull him up and away. I have noticed lately that the Golden gets up and come after the Corso to continue the fight. He used to cower and be scared.
- After breaking them up, we will separate them with a pet gate for a short period of time. Usually within 30 seconds they are nosing and kissing each other over the gate with tales wagging, as if to say 'sorry about that'.
- We continue to put them through their obedience training together daily and they both are very responsive to all their basic commands.
- Our Corso joined our household first, was 12 weeks old. The Golden joined as at 10 months old. Golden was submissive, so our Corso assumed the dominant role. We pretty much enforce this hierarchy (Corso always gets treats first, etc). They are now closer in size - Corso is about 105 lbs and the Golden is about 80 lbs - but standing side by side they physically look the same size.

Aside from what I have described above, any ideas how I should be handling this? Is this just a phase based on where they are on their maturing path? If it was a constant thing dislike between the two I could better understand it, but they get along so good the vast majority of the time. Also, I know my Corso is holding back when he goes off - no physical damage is being done to the Golden (not cuts, scrapes, blood, etc). I am not excusing the behavior or minimizing it, but somehow feel it is relevant.

 

[Hiraeth]

So, to give you a better grasp of where this behavior may be coming from - 'dominance' how you are using it in this situation is not a thing. Dogs do not have 'dominant' personalities. 'Dominance' in the canine world is 'situational desire for priority access to resources'. So, if there's a resource involved, like a bone or toy, you could say that your CC is being 'dominant'. But if your CC is going after the Golden when there are no resources available, and there's posturing and then an attack, that's not dominance, that's aggression.

I think the whole feeding one dog treats first, allowing one dog priority access to things, etc, is silly. I don't acknowledge any sort of hierarchy among my dogs, or attempt to enforce any sort of weird 'pack standing'. Personally, I make the rules, and whatever I decide goes. If I give one dog their dinner first one day, and another dog their dinner first the next day, both dogs should be okay with that. They are all equals, and I enforce fairness, not favoritism.

Part of what could be contributing to your issue is that you are indulging your CC's bossiness/demand to be first, by rewarding him for it. If he is always fed first, always let outside first, always *fill in the blank* first, then he is never required to exercise impulse control, or to wait and be patient for his turn, around your other dog. I think impulse control is one of the most important things to teach a male dog who is going to remain intact. So the first thing I'd suggest is working on impulse control exercises with both dogs (both separately and around each other).

The second thing I'd suggest is never leaving them unsupervised together. If you can see the clear signs of an altercation before it happens, you should be able to halt it 100% of the time. If you can't, then the dogs aren't being supervised closely enough. Repeatedly allow your Golden to be bullied/attacked by your CC is going to do (and probably has already done) psychological damage to him. You're eventually going to have two aggressive dogs on your hands as opposed to just one.

It could be an adolescent/maturity issue. Or it could be that your CC is becoming dog selective as he ages and their relationship will continue to deteriorate. A professional behaviorist (not trainer, a certified behaviorist) would perhaps be able to shed more light on the issue by actually observing the dogs interact in person. Situations like these are very hard to diagnose or give advice about in an online setting.

 

[DadOfVino]

Hi Hiraeth,

Thank you very much for your input. I did spend last night researching certified behaviorists and have found one here in my area (Stefanie Schwartz) that I will be contacting later today. If anyone has experience with a good one in the San Diego, CA area they would recommend, please let me know.

 

[marke]

dogs never fight over nothing ...... when you think it's nothing , it's most likely rank .......... giving up a bone , a toy , food doesn't always correlate to rank , sometimes they just don't want it bad enough to argue about it .............

 

[Elana P]

So, back in December I posted a thread (13 month old Corso showed temporary aggression to my Golden). This was a temporary outburst over a couple day's time when we were dog sitting a couple of family member dogs. Once those pups went home, our house went back to normal.

Our Corso is now 16 months and our Golden is 15 months (neither neutered at this time) . For the last couple of weeks or more, my Corso will get a an attitude and go after our Golden. He pins him down and is snarling, etc, but no blood has ever been drawn.

Here is what I have observed:
- our Golden is maturing. While he used to be very submissive, he now doesn't back down. He doesn't give up a toy easily like before, etc. He won't break a stare when the Corso looks at him.
- These boys love each other and play together great - 99% of the time. They will literally be in the back yard (we have over an acre) playing chase, wrestling and having a blast. They will come in the house exhausted and lay down together (literally leaning against each other) and nap. Then an hour later, something will catch my Corso's attention when looking at the Golden and he will stiffen up. The body language is pretty clear, and within 10 seconds he will lunge at the Golden and pin him down, growling, etc. I am working intervening sooner or using the 'leave it' command when I see them lock eyes, but sometime unable to be right on it.
- They eat in the same room and have never had a resource guarding issues. We learned awhile ago that giving them bones or chew toys together just does not work, but regular meals are fine.
- When I break them up, I either throw water on them or grab the Corso's collar (when I have a clear, safe shot) and pull him up and away. I have noticed lately that the Golden gets up and come after the Corso to continue the fight. He used to cower and be scared.
- After breaking them up, we will separate them with a pet gate for a short period of time. Usually within 30 seconds they are nosing and kissing each other over the gate with tales wagging, as if to say 'sorry about that'.
- We continue to put them through their obedience training together daily and they both are very responsive to all their basic commands.
- Our Corso joined our household first, was 12 weeks old. The Golden joined as at 10 months old. Golden was submissive, so our Corso assumed the dominant role. We pretty much enforce this hierarchy (Corso always gets treats first, etc). They are now closer in size - Corso is about 105 lbs and the Golden is about 80 lbs - but standing side by side they physically look the same size.

Aside from what I have described above, any ideas how I should be handling this? Is this just a phase based on where they are on their maturing path? If it was a constant thing dislike between the two I could better understand it, but they get along so good the vast majority of the time. Also, I know my Corso is holding back when he goes off - no physical damage is being done to the Golden (not cuts, scrapes, blood, etc). I am not excusing the behavior or minimizing it, but somehow feel it is relevant.

Sometimes all it takes is a look to trigger aggression.

Your Goldi might look at your CC the 'wrong way' and away they go. We may or may not see anything in what to us appears to be an innocent look, but in the dog world, it may speak volumes.

Personally, I would keep a close watch on both of them, to see if your Goldi, is not the one instigating the situation.

I always offer treats and food by seniority, and have never had any problems with it.

Are you considering keeping both intact in the long run?

 

[Mastini Mayhem]

Could be frustration based redirection. Correct either when trying to take something from the other (posturing/standing over, acting stiff), as that is rude behavior. Train them and walk them together, this will help strengthen the bond.

 

[DadOfVino]

Hi Elana,

Good input. Yes, we have definitely noticed our Golden getting a bit more 'brave", if you will. I have definitely caught the Golden giving a hard stare back or a curled lip - whereas a couple of months ago he would just be all happy and bouncy all the time. So yes, in a way I think he is maturing and testing the waters and instigating a bit.

In regards to keeping them intact. Was/am kind of on the fence. Our plan all along was to neuter the Corso once he reached 18 months and since added the Golden mid-way there we figured we would have them both done at the same time. But have read alot about the potential long term medical risks associated with neutering and have some concerns. At no time will they be able to have access to any females, so there is no risk of accidental litters.

Do you have a male? What has been your experience before and after neutering a Corso or Mastiff?

 

[DadOfVino]

Hi Mastini - thank you for your input.

Things kind of picked up this morning where they left off last night so I kept them separated by gates a bit this morning.

A couple hours later I took them for their walk together and they were 100% fine. No hard looks or posturing, just a good walk with neither pulling hard at the leash in any direction. We then had a great hour or so in our backfield and they played and chased each other as usual.

We will definitely keep training and walking them together. The bond is definitely there, they act like goofy best buddies 99% of the time. Thank you for the advice!

 

[DennasMom]

dogs never fight over nothing ...... when you think it's nothing , it's most likely rank .......... giving up a bone , a toy , food doesn't always correlate to rank , sometimes they just don't want it bad enough to argue about it .............

We adopted a 1yr old boxer/bulldog who would attack our 5yr old Dane/lab mix, when the Dane was ASLEEP... SNORING... our poor older dog became afraid to sleep... we had to rehome the bulldog, and both were much happier dogs. I since have heard of other bulldogs that just do not tolerate another dog in the room when they want to relax... not sure what they're fighting over at that point?? Everyone would be napping in front of the TV, except the bulldog, who would get more tense the more the rest of us relaxed...

For the CC and Golden, I think a behaviorist will be a big help. I think there might also be something to Hiraeth's "equality" note - if the Golden is trying to be a big boy, now... he's having to prove himself to both you and the CC. If you treat them both equally, that might help lower the CC down to be equal to the Golden - with you being more in control - which might help everything settle down a bit.

Hope you can help solve the issue. I love seeing two pups enjoy each other's company... but for us, the 1% time spent fighting was causing the whole house to be a stressful mess, since we never knew when the bulldog would flip out.

 

[DadOfVino]

Hi DennasMom,

Thanks for sharing! That is a strange situation - attacking another that is asleep!

Yes - definitely stressful when they don't get along.

I agree, seeing to pups enjoying each other's company is awesome! They make me smile everyday! I guess that's part of why this is so unnerving right now. I know they love each other. They play together all the time. If one is sleeping, the other will walk by and lick the other's face and lay down next to the other and fall asleep.

We are going to try working it our ourselves for a few days. The behaviorist we have in mind is not cheap - $400+ per session. If we need to go that route, we will. They are our babies and we will exhaust all efforts to resolve the issue. I am hoping we don't end up get to the point of having to choose to rehome one of them. That must be an agonizing decision, but in some cases can be the only solution.

 

[marke]

We adopted a 1yr old boxer/bulldog who would attack our 5yr old Dane/lab mix, when the Dane was ASLEEP... SNORING... our poor older dog became afraid to sleep... we had to rehome the bulldog, and both were much happier dogs. I since have heard of other bulldogs that just do not tolerate another dog in the room when they want to relax... not sure what they're fighting over at that point?? Everyone would be napping in front of the TV, except the bulldog, who would get more tense the more the rest of us relaxed...

For the CC and Golden, I think a behaviorist will be a big help. I think there might also be something to Hiraeth's "equality" note - if the Golden is trying to be a big boy, now... he's having to prove himself to both you and the CC. If you treat them both equally, that might help lower the CC down to be equal to the Golden - with you being more in control - which might help everything settle down a bit.

Hope you can help solve the issue. I love seeing two pups enjoy each other's company... but for us, the 1% time spent fighting was causing the whole house to be a stressful mess, since we never knew when the bulldog would flip out.

I've never seen a dog attack or fight another dog without a reason ...... I've seen more than my share of dog fights ......... possibly your boxer/bulldog had some type of mental illness , or just wanted the other dog gone ....... wanting the other dog gone would be a territorial/possessive thing ................ jmo

 

[Hiraeth]

Hi Elana,

Good input. Yes, we have definitely noticed our Golden getting a bit more 'brave", if you will. I have definitely caught the Golden giving a hard stare back or a curled lip - whereas a couple of months ago he would just be all happy and bouncy all the time. So yes, in a way I think he is maturing and testing the waters and instigating a bit.

In regards to keeping them intact. Was/am kind of on the fence. Our plan all along was to neuter the Corso once he reached 18 months and since added the Golden mid-way there we figured we would have them both done at the same time. But have read alot about the potential long term medical risks associated with neutering and have some concerns. At no time will they be able to have access to any females, so there is no risk of accidental litters.

Do you have a male? What has been your experience before and after neutering a Corso or Mastiff?

Not that you asked me, but I've done a ton of research about s/n, and at what age to do so. Most long term detrimental effects are minimized as long as you wait until maturity to alter. The biggest risk comes in pediatric and pre-adolescent altering. Removing the testicles from a grown male will reduce his metabolism and therefore increase the risk of obesity, but it won't lead to altering-related hip dysplasia or cruciate disease because all of the dog's growing will be done. The risk of certain cancers is slightly higher (hemangiosarcoma in particular) in any neutered dog, but the osteosarcoma risk is mostly for dogs who were altered pre-growth plate closure.

So I think neutering after they hit maturity will be fine, health-wise. However, I do not think neutering will solve these issues. One of my favorite trainers says that if you're altering an animal to fix behavioral issues, you're working on the wrong end of the dog.

 

[DadOfVino]

Hi Hiraeth,

I didn't ask, but that definitely is the type of additional input I am looking for.

I did a thread a few months ago asking for input on neutering and their were a few responses. I am very interested in hearing the input from people who have done the research and also from peoples experience.

I have had several people this last week, once they found out my boys were still intact, say "there's your problem. Get them neutered and that will fix everything".

If only it was that easy! I like your comment - working on the wrong side of the dog!

That being said, I am leaning toward getting them fixed in a couple of months. I live in a pretty rural area and we have ALOT of coyotes. I've heard that female coyotes in heat can get the attention of a male dog.....

 

[Hiraeth]

I took a break from forums for a while, so I probably wasn't around when your thread was posted. Here's some of the information I've gathered over the years:

Studies/surveys:

*Non - Reproductive Long - Term Health Complications of Gonad Removal in Dogs as Well as Possible Causal Relationships with Post - Gonadectomy Elevated Luteinizing Hormone (LH) Concentrations
http://crescopublications.org/pdf/JEAH/JEAH-1-002.pdf

*Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk [In Rottweilers]
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434

*Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055937

*Effects of ovariohysterectomy on reactivity in German Shepherd dogs
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S109002330500064X

*Neutering of German Shepherd Dogs: associated joint disorders, cancers and urinary incontinence
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/vms3.34/full
https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/early-neutering-poses-health-risks-german-shepherd-dogs-study-finds

*Evaluation of the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral disorders in gonadectomized Vizslas
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24432963

*Behavior and physical affects, which shows the correlation between neutering and increased aggression
http://www.atftc.com/health/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

Articles about studies, veterinarian point of views, etc:

*Spay, Neuter And Joint Disease
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/spay-neuter-and-joint-disease/

*Long term effects, which clearly outlines the pros/cons
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

*Considerations, including increase in fears, sound sensitivity, and aggression
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/earlyspayconsiderations.pdf

*Concerning aggression and fearful dogs
https://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml

*Your Dog Needs To Be Spayed Or Neutered – Right?
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/your-dog-needs-to-be-spayed-or-neutered-right/

*Veterinarian Karen Becker, "Why I've Had a Change of Heart About Neutering Pets" including traditional spay/neuter desexing vs. sterilization
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/09/30/neutering-health-risks.aspx

 

[Siloh]

Do the boys have a solid "place" command?

I'm just spitballing, here, but if they're receptive to obedience training and they play hard a lot, maybe get two distinct mats, and practice drills where you give a unique command that piggybacks off of their understanding of "place," like, "mat!" and train them to go each to their "own" place. You could take the mats outside and spring the command on them when they're in the midst of playing, which would, I think, effectively work as a command that will a) inherently separate them b) teach them to go from 60-0 quickly. That way, in the house, if you see a moment of tension, you could give the mat command, which should efficiently lower the "temperature" if you will while also quickly separating them AND reinforcing that you don't like that behavior, and you expect tension to turn immediately into separation/calm, not escalation/aggression. It would also place equal responsibility on both boys to leave the situation immediately, rather than hauling one off while the other continues to instigate.

Just a thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[marke]

as far as neutering a male dog , myself personally I don't see a reason for it ..... but no one can deny it doesn't alter behavior , because it does ........... for folks that do need to alter their dogs , I would say wait as long as possible ............as far as all the studies and health problems caused by altering your dogs , I have thoroughly read most of the originals , some are no more than statistical analysis of random surveys and records ....... can barely be called a study , other than they are studying unsubstantiated biased information ...... an example off the top of my head is the golden retriever study , where early neutered dogs were 10% dysplastic , intact dogs less than 5% dysplastic ....... well almost all ofa certified dogs are intact dogs , golden retrievers as a breed are 20% dysplastic , and ofa is biased to non-dysplastic dogs , the actual number is without question higher than 20% ........ this would really be a problem with this "study" as far as taking it seriously .............

 

[DadOfVino]

Thought I should post a brief follow up.

Summary: all is well in the household!

It took a few days of conscious effort, but things returned to normal. I spent time each day with them together, going through training commands and walking. I had them sit/lay on either side of me (I sat on the floor) in the evening while watching tv and stuff - which diffused the tension between the two and got my Golden comfortable being near my Corso inside, We noticed that the incidents were really only happening in the evening and inside the house. They would be playing outside and having fun, then come inside and we would notice the Golden hiding and keeping his distance - we weren't sure if they Corso was throwing off an aggressive vibe, or if my Golden was acting weird and freaking out my Corso - it was like a chicken and egg syndrome - which came first?

My boys are back to playing together both outside and in the house. They wrestle, chase, etc, just like old times. We have had just a couple of flair ups and when those happens, I calmly separate them, and have them sit next to me until they are ready to make up, which is usually less than a minute. I noticed (as per some advice on this thread) that if I separate them to different rooms or the like, the animosity remains or even grows.

So for now, no need for expensive professional help! Thanks for all the advice on this thread!

 

[Hector]

Thought I should post a brief follow up.

Summary: all is well in the household!

It took a few days of conscious effort, but things returned to normal. I spent time each day with them together, going through training commands and walking. I had them sit/lay on either side of me (I sat on the floor) in the evening while watching tv and stuff - which diffused the tension between the two and got my Golden comfortable being near my Corso inside, We noticed that the incidents were really only happening in the evening and inside the house. They would be playing outside and having fun, then come inside and we would notice the Golden hiding and keeping his distance - we weren't sure if they Corso was throwing off an aggressive vibe, or if my Golden was acting weird and freaking out my Corso - it was like a chicken and egg syndrome - which came first?

My boys are back to playing together both outside and in the house. They wrestle, chase, etc, just like old times. We have had just a couple of flair ups and when those happens, I calmly separate them, and have them sit next to me until they are ready to make up, which is usually less than a minute. I noticed (as per some advice on this thread) that if I separate them to different rooms or the like, the animosity remains or even grows.

So for now, no need for expensive professional help! Thanks for all the advice on this thread!

This is just the beginning. You still cannot let your guard down, but it is a good start.

 

[DadOfVino]

Hi Hector - you are absolutely right! I will stay on top of it and make sure to keep up the work!