CC Puppy loses temper

[glen]

I usually agree with posts from you but this I feel I need to jump in as having first hand current experience with this.

Please don't use the tug game lightly. These dogs with drive are no joke and not an EM. Just to give you an idea my female CC has a tug toy, a special K-9 tug toy that we use for training and is used in IPO training. My wife can't even grab the toy around her because she goes ballistic when she even see's it. Mind you my CC is a heavy drive dog but its very possible the OP has a drivy dog also. If you used a tug toy with my girl she would take you down trying to get to it or get it from you and she is 60% trained from total IPO. They develop a certain attachment to the toy that is used in positive reinforcement. Similar to that of a sleeve or a canvas tug. I know people will say well she is out of control. This is false, this tug can be used during training which is her job and works very well. The tug works better than food in a positive training scenario that I use.

These are not your play tug for fun type of dogs (which iv'e done for 15 years before the CC). I'm sure there are other CC owners that will agree with this.

I believe this is serious enough for its own thread as I know there will be people that say oh no, I use with my mixed or my docile CC. But those with drivy CC know how serious a game of tug is. Here is one of the many articles on tug games with dogs. Please read #3 in the article. If this Op started to play tug with her 16 week old CC which is drivy, she would have more problems than she has now. These aggressive problems attacking her and the vet only show that this dog is a possible good candidate for bite work, which I can tell you right now with kids in her house I would go against this 100%. Less than 5% of CC owners have the ability to safely train in bite work imo and tug is the gateway to bite work in this breed.

Not only that, a CC is born a 40 caliber most people dont have a reason to make it a loaded 40 caliber.

http://thehyperpup.com/will-playing-tug-war-make-dog-aggressive/

I have 3 ccs all male 2 very lets call them drivy, i i totally agree with dennasmum, i have used tug as a training tool, i started when they were young, my children have all grown up but theres not a day that my house isnt filled with grandchildren, ranging from 3 months old to 7 years, my dogs will play tug with any of us the second we say drop, leave or enough they let go and instantly lay down, if a child goes near them when they have there tug toys or anything in there mouths they drop it and give it up to the child, this is done with persistent and continuous training from a young age.
This is just my opinion but your dog hasnt got theae traits because shesa cc this could be any breed as youve said shes 60 percent trained and i believe she needs a lot more work on this situation, not one of mine would do that but iv worked hard to make aure that doesnt happen.
I dont understand when you say its not an em its a cc, a drivy untrained em can be just as much a danger as a cc,
Please dont think im attacking your opinions im certainly not, i really wish you could meet my budcuss, you can and should be able to pick a favourite toy up from a cc without being knocked over or attacked when properly trained.

 

[Steven C]

I have 3 ccs all male 2 very lets call them drivy, i i totally agree with dennasmum, i have used tug as a training tool, i started when they were young, my children have all grown up but theres not a day that my house isnt filled with grandchildren, ranging from 3 months old to 7 years, my dogs will play tug with any of us the second we say drop, leave or enough they let go and instantly lay down, if a child goes near them when they have there tug toys or anything in there mouths they drop it and give it up to the child, this is done with persistent and continuous training from a young age.
This is just my opinion but your dog hasnt got theae traits because shesa cc this could be any breed as youve said shes 60 percent trained and i believe she needs a lot more work on this situation, not one of mine would do that but iv worked hard to make aure that doesnt happen.
I dont understand when you say its not an em its a cc, a drivy untrained em can be just as much a danger as a cc,
Please dont think im attacking your opinions im certainly not, i really wish you could meet my budcuss, you can and should be able to pick a favourite toy up from a cc without being knocked over or attacked when properly trained.

Did any of your CC attack you on the bed or the Vet when they were 16 weeks old?

An EM is nowhere near as drivy as a working line CC. Not even close and probably a fun dog to play tug with. I'm not sure how drivy your dogs really are. When I say drivy I mean police work drivy. Also I said 60% IPO trained, not normal trained. Normal trained probably 200% of what a non IPO trained dog can do.

 

[Justin B.]

I have 3 ccs all male 2 very lets call them drivy, i i totally agree with dennasmum, i have used tug as a training tool, i started when they were young, my children have all grown up but theres not a day that my house isnt filled with grandchildren, ranging from 3 months old to 7 years, my dogs will play tug with any of us the second we say drop, leave or enough they let go and instantly lay down, if a child goes near them when they have there tug toys or anything in there mouths they drop it and give it up to the child, this is done with persistent and continuous training from a young age.
This is just my opinion but your dog hasnt got theae traits because shesa cc this could be any breed as youve said shes 60 percent trained and i believe she needs a lot more work on this situation, not one of mine would do that but iv worked hard to make aure that doesnt happen.
I dont understand when you say its not an em its a cc, a drivy untrained em can be just as much a danger as a cc,
Please dont think im attacking your opinions im certainly not, i really wish you could meet my budcuss, you can and should be able to pick a favourite toy up from a cc without being knocked over or attacked when properly trained.

His goals and what he wants to accomplish with his dog requires a totally different training method and encouraging and channeling a higher level of drive and the behavior he speaks of. He has posted about doing serious IPO work with his dogs. That ussually requires a different mindset and tolerance from that of just raising a family pet or guardian companion.

 

[Steven C]

His goals and what he wants to accomplish with his dog requires a totally different training method and encouraging and channeling a higher level of drive and the behavior he speaks of. He has posted about doing serious IPO work with his dogs. That usually requires a different mindset and tolerance from that of just raising a family pet or guardian companion.

That's exactly right, and channeling or redirecting her drive is the way we do it and yes we use positive reinforcement.

Its weird, I feel like on this site there seems to be an agenda promoting CC as Labs and I feel like I'm in a fantasy world almost. Although I do have a friend in Florida that has a large CC that is very docile and sweet so perhaps many of these dogs are bred super easy going. I mean I didn't think my dog was that far away from a non working line but now I question that. I might be way out of line giving wrong advice for non working line breeds.

 

[glen]

His goals and what he wants to accomplish with his dog requires a totally different training method and encouraging and channeling a higher level of drive and the behavior he speaks of. He has posted about doing serious IPO work with his dogs. That ussually requires a different mindset and tolerance from that of just raising a family pet or guardian companion.

I understand what level of training he wishes to avhieve, and maybe you have mis undestood my point,
I think you have misunderstood my point, i wouldnt avcept any behaviour from my ccs taht could cause injust to the adults or injury in my household, this was to steven c

 

[Justin B.]

I understand what level of training he wishes to avhieve, and maybe you have mis undestood my point,
I think you have misunderstood my point, i wouldnt avcept any behaviour from my ccs taht could cause injust to the adults or injury in my household, this was to steven c

What he described is common practice for this field. I think its maybe the other way around when it comes to understanding.
He spoke of drive towards a SPECIFIC object.
Thats great. And maybe he wouldnt accept a working dog with less drive.
Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Justin B.]

That's exactly right, and channeling or redirecting her drive is the way we do it and yes we use positive reinforcement.

Its weird, I feel like on this site there seems to be an agenda promoting CC as Labs and I feel like I'm in a fantasy world almost. Although I do have a friend in Florida that has a large CC that is very docile and sweet so perhaps many of these dogs are bred super easy going. I mean I didn't think my dog was that far away from a non working line but now I question that. I might be way out of line giving wrong advice for non working line breeds.

I often have been feeling the same way here. The thing I dont get is how people cant even acknowledge that there are pros who do this. The general feel here is I own a dog of X breed so my personal experience trumps yours.

I think I will move on and try some other forums. Maybe something more working oriented. Been a while since I have done the forum thing.

 

[glen]

That's exactly right, and channeling or redirecting her drive is the way we do it and yes we use positive reinforcement.

Its weird, I feel like on this site there seems to be an agenda promoting CC as Labs and I feel like I'm in a fantasy world almost. Although I do have a friend in Florida that has a large CC that is very docile and sweet so perhaps many of these dogs are bred super easy going. I mean I didn't think my dog was that far away from a non working line but now I question that. I might be way out of line giving wrong advice for non working line breeds.

For a start i think ccs are far away from labs, my dogs can be very far away from docile and sweet natured, iv witnessed this, we all have different ways of training, all of us are different, what works for one dog doesnt work for another, i agree with most of your replies.
All i was trying to get over to you is my ccs that 2 are drivy would never act how your girl does if your wife tried to touch her favourite toy, let me say clearly i dont think your wrong in your training methods i just feel that needs a lot of work, now my boys are 5, and 3 it took at least 12 months for us to acheive anything near to what we wanted, i dont think these are an easy breed, iv often said on here they are not for unexperienced owners, if my eldest got into the wrong hands i honestly think he would have been a dangerous dog so pkease dont put me in the catagory of thinking they are labs, i also dont think the cc should be put into the agressive catagory,
Im no expert trainer but iv had 30 years of having rotties ect, the cc is different from these il agree on that.
Now if you feel i am one of those that portray the cc as a lab your wrong and i wont take offence so please dont take offence when i say i feel you sometimes portray the cc a little too harshly,
And when i said i wish you could meet budcuss then i think we would be on the same page, he sounds like your girl was at that age, but with training i managed it, surely thats positive for you. Hes no lab but a highly trained dog that would not challenge a human in his household, as we can agree on a cc could do a lot of damage

 

[glen]

I often have been feeling the same way here. The thing I dont get is how people cant even acknowledge that there are pros who do this. The general feel here is I own a dog of X breed so my personal experience trumps yours.

I think I will move on and try some other forums. Maybe something more working oriented. Been a while since I have done the forum thing.

I dont feel my x breed experience trumps yours, i actually feel your way more experienced than me, my point is just because it was a cc i wouldnt have the cc challenging over a toy with humans in the household.

 

[Steven C]

I dont feel my x breed experience trumps yours, i actually feel your way more experienced than me, my point is just because it was a cc i wouldnt have the cc challenging over a toy with humans in the household.

Just to be clear, it's not challenging but a far to strong form of excitement for her or anyone else to take the tug toy out without immediately putting her into her daily training regime. Which by the way my wife actually gives me breaks and trains her for certain things, like down in the beginning was all my wife and done with Turkey dogs and a clicker.

When she started to look at us like treat dispensers in training, I knew it was time to switch to the tug. Now this tug is like a piece of gold to her, if she see's it she screams in excitement getting ready to train. The tug is what I used to get her to focus heel and rear end control. If a child or my wife grabbed the tug, the dog would be overly excited and not realizing her ability to knock them down to get it. Possibly trample over one of the Poodles while doing it or injuring someone.

Never a growl or a bite. Drive dogs need to focus on a specific item and they will do anything to get that toy.

Challenging would not be acceptable or resource guarding thankfully never had to deal with.

After knowing the OP dog has attacked or challenged authority at 16 weeks (4 months) do you still recommend to tug?

 

[Boxergirl]

Not trying to be picky, but I think the pup is 10 weeks old? Or was at the time the incident occurred. Maybe I'm mistaken. The behavior described at 10 weeks is not the same as if the dog were 16 weeks, imo. In cases like this I think age does make a difference.

 

[glen]

Just to be clear, it's not challenging but a far to strong form of excitement for her or anyone else to take the tug toy out without immediately putting her into her daily training regime. Which by the way my wife actually gives me breaks and trains her for certain things, like down in the beginning was all my wife and done with Turkey dogs and a clicker.

When she started to look at us like treat dispensers in training, I knew it was time to switch to the tug. Now this tug is like a piece of gold to her, if she see's it she screams in excitement getting ready to train. The tug is what I used to get her to focus heel and rear end control. If a child or my wife grabbed the tug, the dog would be overly excited and not realizing her ability to knock them down to get it. Possibly trample over one of the Poodles while doing it or injuring someone.

Never a growl or a bite. Drive dogs need to focus on a specific item and they will do anything to get that toy.

Challenging would not be acceptable or resource guarding thankfully never had to deal with.

After knowing the OP dog has attacked or challenged authority at 16 weeks (4 months) do you still recommend to tug?

You may disagree with me and thats fine, but in my opinion its far better to train the pup if its got hold of something in a tug situation to drop it, it doesnt have to be a toy they grab, iv seen many a dog grab at the owners clothing when they are older, you dont have to play tug with the pup to make them understand this command, but rightly or wrongly this is how we do it,
At the start say when the pup is around 12 weeks old we get a tug toy we prompt the pup in play tug but we stop the pup say on the 3rd tug tell him to leave it and prompt the pup to lay down. We dont let the tug game go on for more than sayn10 seconds until that command is spot on, everyone we want the pup to respect does this, apert from children the dogs are trained never to do this with them, from a young age if a child goes near them we train the pup to drop it and walk away.
This isnt just with toys, same goes with food treats ect,
Its not easy it takes a hell of a lot of time, its not for everyone but i feel safer knowing i can get this to happen, iv had the challenges but weve worked through it.
I know this breed is different, my god iv had some challenges with rotties but nothing compares to the challenge i had with bud,
Iv seen how these work together when we had an intruder, i certainly wouldnt want to be on the wrong side of them, and the leave it command came in that night when bud had hold of the intruders trousers as he was going over the fence, leave it and here and he was back at my side,
Maybe im saying tug as a game wrongly, i use it to ttrain first and a game later when trained.
We live in the uk in the countryside, open fields very isolated im a woman that can be on my own if glen works away so i need to be in control of them, and i am, so im no expert but what i do works.

 

[Annette Coleman]

I have occasionally played tug with my high drive CC, but use it as an exercise in control. He can only take the rope on command and must release it on command. I also turned fetch into a control game. He's not allowed to go after the toy until told to do so. These exercises helped calm him down and give me more control of him.

 

[Steven C]

Not trying to be picky, but I think the pup is 10 weeks old? Or was at the time the incident occurred. Maybe I'm mistaken. The behavior described at 10 weeks is not the same as if the dog were 16 weeks, imo. In cases like this I think age does make a difference.

Now I'm really in Narnia. I thought this dog was 16 weeks and yes it does make a huge difference. That post must have been edited or the mandela effect is in full force. In any event for what its worth to others wanting to know about tugs and possible aggressions associated this thread might make a decent read. At 10 weeks old I think the dog is just playing rough with the new mommy and the evil vet.

 

[VinniesMom]

Not trying to be picky, but I think the pup is 10 weeks old? Or was at the time the incident occurred. Maybe I'm mistaken. The behavior described at 10 weeks is not the same as if the dog were 16 weeks, imo. In cases like this I think age does make a difference.

He is 11 weeks old today. Can't believe it has only been a week since posting this!

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

There are lots of great views and valuable input and it needs to be up to the owner on what they are comfortable with. We will never 100% agree with how someone else chooses to do things. I can guarantee that if someone was watching me deal with my pups/dogs on a daily basis they would have more than a few different opinions than they might of me now.

I have corso, I grew up with labs and owned rotties before this... neither of those prepared me for a corso (despite thinking they had) and with each new dog I learn a little bit more. I honestly avoid training posts because like other hot topics (politics, religion, how to raise children, etc.) I think too many people believe they are right, but there is no way to know unless you are overseeing the problem so my advice is always... seek professional help from someone who is good with these breeds close to you.

Also, as upsetting as it is our breed is being watered down so that while they appear like corso they behave like labs, it is what society demands from working breeds (not right) and for those that are more concerned with the $$ it is no problem to do this and make it a breed that anyone and everyone can own easily.

 

[Zeela]

I agree with BlackShadow, they are such gentle giants.

 

[Annette Coleman]

I agree with BlackShadow, they are such gentle giants.

They CAN be gentle giants. However in my limited experience even our gentle giantess could occasionally be stubborn and require a firm hand. (Not a violent one.) Every dog and every situation is different. There is no one size fits all answer. There is just what works for the dog and it's family.

 

[Steven C]

Now I'm really in Narnia. I thought this dog was 16 weeks and yes it does make a huge difference. That post must have been edited or the mandela effect is in full force. In any event for what its worth to others wanting to know about tugs and possible aggressions associated this thread might make a decent read. At 10 weeks old I think the dog is just playing rough with the new mommy and the evil vet.

Ok I found the issue with why I thought this was a 16 week old Corso being aggressive. Although the tips I left would be good for either dog it was another thread. But I feel the other OP is being robbed of good info and decent safe advice to possibly stop that dog from ending up in a rescue or euthanized. It is in fact 16 weeks old.

These last few posts in this thread were meant for another thread with a 16 week old Corso attacking owner and Vet. Located here http://www.mastiff-forum.com/index.php?threads/tried-to-bite-me-and-vet.30767/

 

[Boxergirl]

I thought there was a lot of good advice on that other thread. Was there something in particular you disagreed with? Serious question as I really want to know.