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Brady19

Well-Known Member
It would also show who eats first and dominance will reveal itself that was the point.

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Brady19

Well-Known Member
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Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
My female is dominant over my male doesn't matter how much you dislike that fact it's truth. She eats first, controls the toys and if he is barking at people passing by and I tell him to stop and he doesn't my female runs up and barks and bites him forcing him to stop. It's fact people and you controlling food and where they can sleep or relieve themselves is being dominant over them. There is no argument. If you jabs never seen or experienced it come on over and watch my dogs interact

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You may think it's fact or truth, but it's not. You're simply misconstruing the way your dogs behave because you don't understand the root cause of their behavior.

This is no argument because you're simply wrong. Anyone who is a graduate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists or the Academy of Veterinary Behavior Technicians knows that you're wrong. Anyone with an MS or PhD from one of the many degree programs in animal behavioral science offered across the United States knows that you're wrong. Anyone who is a certified trainer through the Association of Professional Dog Trainers knows that you're wrong.

Right now, you simply look foolish. Like one of the people who insisted that the world was flat even after Aristotle proved that it was undoubtedly round around 330 BC.
 

Brady19

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry facts offend you so much brother. You can list associations but to state every person from there believes as you would be what is foolish. You have already stated a quote from someone who was quoting someone else that was proven wrong. I also assume lions don't have an obvious leader, elephants or any other social animals. Science is made up of ideas and opinions often debunked later, and someone is always trying to find a new twist to an old idea to justify themselves. I have no idea how old you are but you will one day experience animals where you can not deny the fact. And frankly your are living and being the dominant one in your pack of dogs even if you refuse to see it. You will only see what your looking for. I have been around dogs my entire life, have volunteered at vet clinics and animal shelters since I was 13 years old. I have also been employed at more than one shelter and one vet office. I have trained many animals and dedicated most of my young adult life to animals. So don't tell me what every vet believes because your full of your own ego. Good luck to you and please let me be.

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Brady19

Well-Known Member
For every one expert that believes as you do there are at least 10 that support a order within a pack

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Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Not one person here has said that social hierarchies can't exist within a pack of animals. Although you do not seem to grasp how that works either. These hierarchies are not fixed. They can change depending on any number of factors. We are talking about humans and dogs. Social hierarchies do not exist between the two species. I would give you some links so you could read about this, but I don't think you would look at them.

Again, I apologize to brandon1234 for the turn this thread has taken. We should have taken this discussion to our own thread instead of hijacking yours. If you are still reading and would like some help locating a positive reinforcement trainer or behaviorist in your area we would be happy to try to help.
 

Brady19

Well-Known Member
Like I said less than 10% of experts agree with you. So on essence your saying 90% of the specialists in the world are wrong, this is unlikely and I myself can out number your links that will very simply state your confused trying to turn a known and factual order into something like the way a human thinks. Anyways it pointless I never said hierarchies are fixed and I have had a dog that I know saw himself above children. Like I said you can run your mouth all you want but I can show you all day long examples in real life. Bring your dog's on over and let's give then a few days to figure out who runs things, I can only assume you must be liberals with this kinda logic

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marke

Well-Known Member
Assuming that most people have evolved from the caveman days (though not all of them), it will be safe to say that dogs have also evolved from their wolf days. ............... more recent evolution of dog breeds, limited interbreeding has imposed a remarkable genetic structure such that nearly all breeds represent distinct genetic pools that can be divided into at least four distinct genetic groupings." [http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/12/1706.full]
I hope this is enough proof for you, but you can further google the differences between wolves and dogs.

If your implying dogs and man are at similar , or even comparable points along their evolution from wolves and apes , imo , you need further research …….. I would look into it further myself , but off the top of my head ……….. man and apes have different numbers of chromosomes ………… I assume the 4 distinct groups your article refers to are those based on the fact domestic dogs do not have a single source of mtdna , it’s more like 6-7 sources ……… these 4 distinct groups of dogs mtdna differs more from one group to another than it does from the groups individual mtdna ancestors , wild canids …….. I believe the percentage difference in mtdna between individual dogs and their wild origin itself will vary , the best you could get is an average ……… I’m certainly not well informed in understanding dna , beyond breeding dogs for traits , but I do watch tv , and read books , I think your percent difference in mtdna from dogs to ancestral wolf is 1/10th of the percent you’ve given ………. When left to randomly breed like people dogs will return to wild type , and behavior……..pariah dogs throughout the world have similar type , dingos have become wild dogs again , I doubt people could return to chimpanzees ? i have no doubt I could return my ddb to wolf type in my lifetime ………. I also cannot believe that wolf has not been introduced into our domestic dogs in recent times , Mike Sottile said when he was in Italy for the certification of cane corso , he knew of or suspected of farmers using wolf dog crosses in their dogs …… as a breeder I would think a wolf dog cross would first of all be beneficial in introducing those teeth and bite strength , immune health , and prey drive , I personally would have no problem believing somebody had similar thoughts ……. Do you think the more primitive breeds of dogs have the same difference in mtdna has sighthounds from their ancestor wild canids ? or even the same mtdna



As far as throwing the meat to me and my friends , the point I apparently didn’t convey , was dominance and hierarchy does serve survival , that’s exactly it’s purpose …….. survive and reproduce ……….. we have dulled that through domestication , but I assure you it’s still there ….. when resources are in short supply it'll come to the surface ....



“Dogs clearly have behaviors, phenotypes, and diseases that are not evident in their wild progenitors” , I don’t know any , could you tell me some ?



As far as brain differences and differences in gene expression , that can be found throughout modern man as a species , in siblings for that matter ? with both environmental and genetic causes
 

marke

Well-Known Member
Not one person here has said that social hierarchies can't exist within a pack of animals. Although you do not seem to grasp how that works either. These hierarchies are not fixed. They can change depending on any number of factors. We are talking about humans and dogs. Social hierarchies do not exist between the two species. I would give you some links so you could read about this, but I don't think you would look at them.

Again, I apologize to brandon1234 for the turn this thread has taken. We should have taken this discussion to our own thread instead of hijacking yours. If you are still reading and would like some help locating a positive reinforcement trainer or behaviorist in your area we would be happy to try to help.

when your dog doesn't take your dinner they are being submissive to you ..... because they will take each others dinner if they're hungry ....... when it comes to survival of the fittest , dominance in dogs only changes through intimidation or violence ..... i honestly don't see how this debate does not pertain to the original question .....;..
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Like I said less than 10% of experts agree with you. So on essence your saying 90% of the specialists in the world are wrong, this is unlikely and I myself can out number your links that will very simply state your confused trying to turn a known and factual order into something like the way a human thinks. Anyways it pointless I never said hierarchies are fixed and I have had a dog that I know saw himself above children. Like I said you can run your mouth all you want but I can show you all day long examples in real life. Bring your dog's on over and let's give then a few days to figure out who runs things, I can only assume you must be liberals with this kinda logic

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Want to give us quotes from some of these experts? Links? What's your educational background? What type of research have you done? How many dogs have you trained?

Sorry, but you have a male dog who jumps on you and tries to attack strange dogs, and a female dog who will bite your male. So far, evidence suggests that you know very little about training animals, since your own two are so poorly behaved. I'd highly recommend that you withhold your training advice on this forum until your own dogs are under control and you've learned by successfully training and living with well-behaved dogs who don't have behavioral issues.
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
when your dog doesn't take your dinner they are being submissive to you ..... because they will take each others dinner if they're hungry ....... when it comes to survival of the fittest , dominance in dogs only changes through intimidation or violence ..... i honestly don't see how this debate does not pertain to the original question .....;..

It doesn't pertain to the original question because the OP doesn't own the dog. He doesn't have a choice in how the family trains the dog, or whether the family believes in dominance or not.

I gave the OP advice as to how to deal with a dog *that isn't his* safely, and also recommended the family hires a trainer. In a bite situation, that's all that should really be done or said.

But two of the "dominance is real, how dare you say that it's not, you're wrong and I can't keep my mouth shut when I see someone I disagree with on the internet" people swooped in and started this debate. You know what? If you want to debate, let's move it to another thread. Since the OP's issue has nothing to do with dominance, but rather a poorly trained and mismanaged dog, Boxergirl is right, this isn't relevant to his situation at all.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
actually what makes a 9 month old dog that bites dangerous is the fact that dogs have no ethical or moral problem with intimidation and violence ........
 

Brady19

Well-Known Member
I suggest if you make comments about a breed you have experience with that specific breed. A corso is not a great Dane lady. I have a 100lb puppy that has jumped on me 3 times In one moment ever I have worked with animals my entire life and have done research on them, I have also worked in shelters all across texas as well as volunteered at several vet clinics as well as have been employed by one. Both of my dogs list to my commands one used to kill cats as her breed has a very high prey drive I have taught her that the cat belongs I. My home and they now sleep with the cat often on top of her. A mother dog corrects there pups and bites them if a idiot if you don't know that she clearly has taken that role of leader and teacher as is natural for her. A male often doesn't tolerate others males that is also in nature due to desire to mate. I have 2 children 8 and 9 years old who my dogs protect and love they can do anything to those dogs and the dogs allow it. My experience I'm certain far out does your own. Apparently you have an issue with words like dominance, alpha, leader that shows your own insecurities as a person because you relate those words to abuse, which mabey you personally have experienced abuse I don't know but that would explain you issues. The definition of dominance is most important, powerful or influential. That's all. The fact is when you get a Cane Corso or certain breeds that are known to push boundaries you have to set those boundaries and rules. And can not allow anger or biting others period. And what ever rules you have in your home respect you your things your food to respect each other and the family. By making rules you are being a leader period I don't see how you don't think you have to be a leader and guide your animal in an appropriate fashion. You clearly have breeds as you have already stated that are not difficult breeds other than I believe you said you have a rot. So until you have raised a corso don't tell me how also your dog's have been fixed they no longer are influenced by their hormones and that completely effects the social behavior in a group. You are overly sensitive to certain words so you decide what you want to use to describe your position In your home, dominant, alpha, leader life coach or pantie wad I really don't care. But don't attack me because you don't like my words and try and dominate me in any forum in any way. For someone so against the word dominate you have a problem trying to control people, you should seek guidance for that I'm assuming your husband must be very submissive. And you yourself said your dog will bite over snacks therfore making you a hypocrite don't give out guidance until you have figured out the behavior issues in your dog's. As far as giving you resources Google it my stance it the more common and more supported of our two ideas I have read both and it's stated that your idea is wrong trying to put human understandings on an animal that they have a social order. Whether that order w as fought for or because of breeding parents it exists. If a dog bites it needs immediate reaction and correction period not by anyone but the one person who is the leader because a lower person say a young child the dog may very well act out in violence because it will see that as a challenge. It should not be tolerated ever under any circumstance. Don't correct another person's dog. I was charged by a pit bull this week that got off his leash I had my dog on a leash and controlled him even though he was on the defensive and was trying to protect me. I put myself between the two dogs several times as both would have been hurt badly. In most cases that is a bad idea never put yourself between two 100lb males trying to fight I wouldn't recommend it as I could have been seriously hurt. And I had many chances to grab the pit bull but that would have been a horrible mistake as he would have seen me as a threat and attacked me. But I handeld not only my 100lb dog but also a strange 100lb dog trying to attack mine with no injury to myself or either dog for at least a solid min before his owner got there. And what is your educational background I would assume mine is more experienced than yours and I have trained agressive breeds for 25 years lady

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Brady19

Well-Known Member
If you have rules that you uphold you have assumed the role as a leader "dominant" and impose your rules on your dog's therefore being an alpha if you can't understand that as simple as its stated then I can't help you

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BlackShadowCaneCorso

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is no cookie cutter way to dealing with dogs, what works for some might not work for others. Assuming that all methods will work on every dog will leave dogs instead of choosing the best method for that dog will likely end up with not getting the best desired result from the dog.

In this case, this pup is already at a dangerous intersection that can be scary for everyone involved. This dog requires a dog trainer to come in and professionally help, no one on here can tell you the best method for dealing with a situation that has escalated this far.

I will not get into a debate on the best methods of training as there are extremes both ways, I prefer balance which isn't popular with either faction however works with our dogs and allows them to be ambassadors of my breed.

Also while FB does have some knowledgeable people that work with the breed and certainly more than a few that have extensive knowledge, you are far better off to find out who those people are and message them as most of those groups are pet people who do not have the experience to deal with this situation any better than the OP does.

I will warn everyone that a healthy debate is always educational to everyone but name calling and belittling are not. Remain civil and act like adults.
 
Hey I haven't been on in a bit so I just saw all of this. Glad I could start this thread so that not only I am being educated, but Marke and Brady can too! Guys, I understand that this is what you have always been taught and that it can be hard to change old habits (I know because I'm experiencing it at this very moment); however, you definitely need to realize that the information being given to you makes a lot of sense. These people that are giving this information seem to be extremely knowledgeable in there fields and have scientific evidence/reputable sources to back it up. I agree with Hiraeth and his crew here that if I would have alpha rolled I could have been hurt. The first time it didn't result in that, but how many times could I chance it before I got seriously injured? There is much more going on here than just a dog that thinks he is alpha. He is unruly, bossy, and problematic all around. He needs positive training methods to build respect and admiration for his owners and I. Overall I would like to truly thank you guys for all the wonderful information.

To Boxergirl - It would actually be really nice to have some help locating a possible trainer in my area. I'm not sure what the decision of the owners will be at this moment when it comes to training, but it wouldn't hurt to know! Thank you so much!

P.S. To Brady - If you truly believe that telling me to leave a mastiff-specific forum full of professionals and turn to Facebook is good advice, then you need to rethink where you seek your information from. Facebook is full of wannabe dog trainers with a few good ones scattered out.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
brandon1234 , nothing i say , advise , or do at this point , is theory ............. you have the far left and the far right , the smart folks stay closer to the middle ........ let us know how the dog works out .........
 

Brady19

Well-Known Member
The forum I mentioned isn't mastiff specific. It is cane corso specific. There are also well known breeders from all over the world there, that have breed for many types of corsos, show, pet and even experts on working or if your interested in hog hunting. Before you make judgements on you should really look into it. Also your looking for information I was giving you some helpful advice. But first is not to correct another person's dog that info wasn't for you. But honestly blackshadow seems very educated about the breed and the forum I mentioned has experience also. A Cane corso is different that some other mastiff breeds especially great Danes but good luck to you and yes their best bet is to find someone who works with dominate dog breeds

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BlackShadowCaneCorso

Super Moderator
Staff member
Brady if it is Cane Corso Breed Discuss, my feelings on that page are not favorable. You can easily see that my name is now grey on there (Mary Phinney if you want to check) for not agreeing with more than a fair share of irresponsible breeders (the admins being no better than the members in that regard). I have a bit of time in with the breed, but each new dog still teaches me something new or has me tweaking the way I use the tools in my "training toolbox" for each particular dog.

There are some good pages with people of varying degrees of experience and ways of doing things but again, I don't think this is something that can be corrected by talking on a forum. It needs someone who can be hands on and able to come to the house and view all issues in their natural setting and the situation addressed in the best way for the dog. I don't discount anyone's knowledge on here in regards to training but if you are not physically present you can't see stressors, triggers, warning signs and such to give adequate advise towards correcting this dogs behaviour.

I love my breed and the last thing we need is another statistic, so please try your hardest to help your friend see that this is not the way a corso should behave and it is not acceptable to allow that for the future safety of everyone involved.