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Working Dora and Kim in some bitework

pitbullpony

Member
Went out the other night with both girls. Kim is not intended for any sport work; and because she's very late maturing bitch; I've actually not expected much from her in the protection department. She'll bark and fuss; but hasn't really shown that she might think of someone as a bad guy.

Kim has been agitated 2 times so far. The first time with a wonderful trainer; Owen Tober. She has no prey drive; so he had to get her angry before she would react to him; that time she carried the bite roll he was using off the field.
DSCF1718.JPG

Second time she was agitated by Bernhard Flinks. Again; no reaction to the bad guy; she just stuck her paws in her pockets and ignored him. He had to really press her; get her really angry and then she reacted to him.
kimbflinks-1.JPG


This time was a wee bit different. She still carries no suspicion onto the field, and I told this decoy (a friend) not to expect a bite; but wear a sleeve and feed it to her if needed. Ha, freakin', ha. She started barking as soon as he got close (he didn't have to play too bad a guy), he got close enough for her to chase him a bit; he fed her the sleeve (which she tried to go over top of), he threw the sleeve for her to chase; she sniffed it once then blasted in his direction -- me thinks she remembers her episode with B. Flinks; yay!!!!!

Dora is a bit different. I want to see if she'll play the game. She will with me; she'll chase a rag, chase a bite roll, bite, tug, very solid on the bite; very relaxed on the bite; but whenever the decoy wants to play; she looks at him like he's insane.
Who are you again? I'm sorry do I know you. Hey Mom; look over here; a guy who thinks he knows how to play the game?
You can just see the amusement in her eyes. First time she stood and looked at him, second time (last night), she played with him a couple times; but as soon as she realized I wasn't playing with her; she stopped. We played a few times; same deal, I back-tied her for a little drive building; and when I had her going good; I let him step in; as soon as she got that it wasn't me (I was standing behind him); she sat down and ever so politely turned her head away; nope; I'm not playing with you. It was interesting (the decoy is very used to the mali's, dutchies, and GSDs; who ALWAYS want to play); he says to me; she's very soft, a very friendly dog. I don't think he caught the eye-flick she gave him while he was dancing in front of her trying to feed her the bite roll. She gets annoyed when strangers mess with her; she's got about a 10 minute window of tolerating your utter stupidity; then she's done. I noticed the eye flick, I'm not sure he got it; however he must have felt something; 'cause just after the eye flick he stopped bugging her; gave me the roll; and said take her out and play with her some.

All in all a successful session, Kim will bite; won't take too much and Dora will bite; but we won't be working on that for some time yet; she's a little young to get angry.
 

Renee

Well-Known Member
I've often wondered, with a true LGD, how indicative bitework is of real guarding drive. It's great to see them, though, when they're enjoying the "game." :)

And no, I don't think most trainers and decoys who work with Mals and GSDs and those types really have a clue about what makes our dogs tick. ;)
 

filas931

Member
Agree with both you guys....Our dogs are so defense oriented that the sleeve is not a trophy for them like it would be for a herder. Actually pitbullpony, the fact that your dogs are showing such confidence and stability of temperament that they basically ignore the agitator tells me that they are very sure of themselves and know they can take care of him/her easily.
 

Renee

Well-Known Member
I like that Kim tried to go over the sleeve. That's what I want to see. Business. ;)

Kharma's proved herself a few times out in the real world. And yet I can walk her through a crowd without worrying about her reactions. I don't take it for granted that she won't react to something, but I've also learned to have great confidence in her self-confidence, good sense and what she's learned about moving through the in public.
 

pitbullpony

Member
I figure my dogs are very confident; secure in themselves; since they are supposed to be both high defense drives; and both are fairly laid back about the whole business.

They are both very protective in the car, Dora is at the ATM, Kim is property boundary and Dora is house protective.

There are some people in the U.S. who do Schutzhund with their Boerboels; but every account has them getting the dog into defense first; then successfully (or not depending on some trainers) segueing over to prey. I do not wish it with Dora at this time; she is too young to be mad at some individual wearing a big arm; and I did not intend to title her in Schutzhund; in fact there are a few interesting articles about not using the Boerboel in Schutzhund; from people who view it as a very contrived sport for the breed.

Interesting to look at from both angles.
 

Zoom

Well-Known Member
I've heard bits and pieces of discussions and semi-rumors that any CAS capable of passing a CGC is considered to be a bit of a disgrace to the breed, how true is this?

I remember an old member on the other board had a CO and he was perfectly fine walking around as long as there was a large enough "bubble" between him and someone else. He said when they would come across someone else walking their dog, they would scoot over onto the grass and the dog would calmly, but intently, watch them pass, then resume his business.
 

Renee

Well-Known Member
I figure my dogs are very confident; secure in themselves; since they are supposed to be both high defense drives; and both are fairly laid back about the whole business.

They are both very protective in the car, Dora is at the ATM, Kim is property boundary and Dora is house protective.

There are some people in the U.S. who do Schutzhund with their Boerboels; but every account has them getting the dog into defense first; then successfully (or not depending on some trainers) segueing over to prey. I do not wish it with Dora at this time; she is too young to be mad at some individual wearing a big arm; and I did not intend to title her in Schutzhund; in fact there are a few interesting articles about not using the Boerboel in Schutzhund; from people who view it as a very contrived sport for the breed.

Interesting to look at from both angles.

That's pretty much my view on any sort of bite or guarding "sport" for Filas. Weight pull, scentwork, things like that I think are great, but I'm not at all enthused about trivializing the ojeriza with games.
 

pitbullpony

Member
CAS - CGC - The Central Asian Shepherd; not the Caucasian Ovcharka can in most cases easily pass a CGC -- it is a pretty simple test; once the owner cues the dog to accept the approach of the stranger. They really are a dog that when the situation warrants it is highly defensive; they are very territorial; but when removed from their territory - they are simply apathetic towards strangers. When I first met Jeannine; she handed over the leash to me of one of her big males and we walked all around a show ground; he could have cared less who was at the other end of the leash.
Kim's mom who is a complete bitch - she passed; all Jeannine needed to do was make her aware of what was expected; they are not owner aggressive at all; so if you have a bond with your dog; you can get them to understand what is necessary and expected. The CGC expects nothing more than what a vet visit would require; and many CAS can go to the vet.

There are other LGD however that do not go to the vet; the vet comes to them and knocks the dog out to work on it (if necessary); that's hardcore.
 

Zoom

Well-Known Member
Thanks. :) I've heard so many varying things about temperaments and expectations in the CAS, not sure what to believe.
 

pitbullpony

Member
There are so many variants to the CAS as a breed that for sure you can get all kinds; aboriginal flock guardians whose temps segue into guarding a house and kids as well as they do goats/sheep/camels/horses.
There are the sentry types who are hard-asses (Kim's mom J-Lo).
There are the dog-fighting types who are hit and a miss as far as I can see with temps - dog aggressive, friendly to people and no guarding instinct whatsoever.
 

SisMorphine

Member
I feel your pain in working any type of dog OTHER than a herder. Most trainers/decoys have no clue how to work them, and when they reach an impass they just start to throw loads of defense on the dog . . . which usually happens WAY too young!

I'm not sure about your breeds, but for mine many don't "turn on" until they're 2 or even 3. Especially my lines, slow to mature. While searching for trainers I'd been told to give up on Teeny (who at the time was just over a year old). When I finally began to work with someone (who is actually the biggest guy in Alapahas . . . my type at least) he didn't give up and encouraged me not to as well. At 1 yr and 11 months Teeny, who up until that point had shown NO interest, suddenly turned on.

Other trainers washed her BEFORE they had even attempted to do anything with her. I'm just happy that I found my group that I have been working with for the past year+, and it's well worth the 2.5 hour drive each way!


PS: I love to see dogs work. MORE PICS PLEASE :)