What is better Collar or Harness??

[season]

I do agree about the lazy ppl that misuse tools. Not just prongs. Heck, they misuse love and affection. That hurts more dogs than a prong ever will.


Carpe Diem

 

[Hiraeth]

I'm going to admit that I have a very, very hard time wrapping my head around this. It bothers me that a dog fully capable of walking nicely and trained to ignore it's surroundings is still being walked on a prong. In my head it means that the dog must not be capable of walking nicely without it - which therefore means it's not been trained. This is me figuring out my own head, not aimed at you, Season. Clearly you've put the time in with Solo. I don't have anything against a prong, although I honestly believe that positive methods and verbal direction are equally as effective. I've used a prong before. I no longer do and I feel I'm a better, more creative, and more intuitive trainer now. I think my problem stems from my location. Around here most dogs on prongs are NOT able to walk nicely without them. People are lazy and don't use them as a training tool. The put them on their 8 week old puppy and start yanking and yelling no. The second the collar comes off the dog is out of control. Or it's a status symbol to prove they have a bad-ass dog. Many are going for the mean dog look and those are the ones that are actually yanking on the collars to cause the dog to get more agitated and yeah - to cause pain. I'm not far from an area that had a lot of dog fighting and just a small drive away from what used to be the murder capital of the US in the 90's. There are a lot of wanna-be bad boys/girls here. I'm sure we've all seen those wanna-be toughies with their dogs. So while I get why you, Season, and others on here use a prong long after the dog is trained, I still think that you all are the minority that takes the time to learn to use one properly and actually put in the training time. Most people will never ask questions or watch a video on a forum. They'll go to the pet store and buy the tough looking collar and listen to their buddy that still yanks on their dog. And that was my rambling self-examination for the day. Sorry for hijacking, OP.

I agree with all of this. I think prongs are tools that should be phased out. Like training wheels on a bike. You need them to get the feel of riding a bike, but then eventually, you're supposed to take them away. When you're riding with training wheels, nothing's broken, and nothing's being fixed by taking them away. You're simply changing how you approach riding a bike because you've learned enough and refined your skills enough that you no longer need that particular tool.

 

[Hiraeth]

And I have to disagree about love and affection hurting a dog more than a prong ever will. Have you ever seen an embedded prong collar? Or a dog with a collapsed trachea? I have.

Misusing love and affection can effect a dog mentally, which can cause issues. But those issues can be worked on with training. Severe misuse of prongs needs to be corrected surgically. Big difference.

 

[karennj]

Ok, so the prong is still used for high distractions. I guess I can understand because while Bear does not need the halti for loose leash walking I still will use it when in a unpredictable place. Bear walks great, I only had to start using the halti because he is a crotch sniffer and I can't have him doing that on therapy visits. I do find that the halti gives me a ton of control if I ever did need it so I suppose really it is acting as a safety blanket for me when not doing therapy visits (although I do need to keep using it frequently enough to keep him desensitized to it). I know in my heart he walks great and I can control him but if we ever did encounter a running cat or something that I cannot specifically train for I will still have the control to keep him under threshold.

 

[Hiraeth]

... I only had to start using the halti because he is a crotch sniffer and I can't have him doing that on therapy visits...

Haha, this made me laugh. Whyever not? Crotch sniffing isn't therapeutic?

 

[Boxergirl]

Karennj, not that you need a different head collar but have you looked at the Infinity collar from Bold Lead Designs? It's a very simple design, but it was tolerated very well by all of my dogs when I was trying all the head collars. I had the woven collar. Every other brand was very uncomfortable for my short nosed guys, but this one was nice and light. Ultimately head collars weren't for us. Anyway, I thought you might be interested in something a little lighter.

Infinity Collar stops pulling instantly

 

[season]

Ok, so the prong is still used for high distractions. I guess I can understand because while Bear does not need the halti for loose leash walking I still will use it when in a unpredictable place. Bear walks great, I only had to start using the halti because he is a crotch sniffer and I can't have him doing that on therapy visits. I do find that the halti gives me a ton of control if I ever did need it so I suppose really it is acting as a safety blanket for me when not doing therapy visits (although I do need to keep using it frequently enough to keep him desensitized to it). I know in my heart he walks great and I can control him but if we ever did encounter a running cat or something that I cannot specifically train for I will still have the control to keep him under threshold.

Yep

 

[season]

And I have to disagree about love and affection hurting a dog more than a prong ever will. Have you ever seen an embedded prong collar? Or a dog with a collapsed trachea? I have.Misusing love and affection can effect a dog mentally, which can cause issues. But those issues can be worked on with training. Severe misuse of prongs needs to be corrected surgically. Big difference.

Ok, cool.

 

[season]

I agree with all of this. I think prongs are tools that should be phased out. Like training wheels on a bike. You need them to get the feel of riding a bike, but then eventually, you're supposed to take them away. When you're riding with training wheels, nothing's broken, and nothing's being fixed by taking them away. You're simply changing how you approach riding a bike because you've learned enough and refined your skills enough that you no longer need that particular tool.

Does that work for bike helmets too? I mean, once you learn how to ride a bike, refined your skills then you shouldn't need a helmet then, according your training wheel analogy.You can agree or disagree with how I choose to live and work with my dog. We are not on the same page. That's fine. You don't like prongs. Cool. You think corrections are unnecessary. Sweet. Do what works for you.

 

[Hiraeth]

Does that work for bike helmets too? I mean, once you learn how to ride a bike, refined your skills then you shouldn't need a helmet then, according your training wheel analogy.You can agree or disagree with how I choose to live and work with my dog. We are not on the same page. That's fine. You don't like prongs. Cool. You think corrections are unnecessary. Sweet. Do what works for you.

Prongs aren't safety tools, in my opinion. I think you're most likely 100% strong enough to control Solo in a full charge even without a prong.

As it is, I'm fully aware that we disagree. You give your advice to people. I give my advice to people. You think my advice is likely to be mentally harmful to a dog. I think your advice is likely to be physically harmful to a dog.

People get to choose what works for them based on what they read here. I think prongs are the wrong tool for 95% of the people who come here. Just because YOU use one successfully on your one dog doesn't mean that other people can, or should. Nothing that I recommend here can physically harm a dog, and I've used my methods on four human-and-dog aggressive dogs with the result that they live together, peacefully, in my home. I recommend guidance, clear communication and leadership. You recommend a tool that when used incorrectly can lead to surgery or death.

There are *always* risks to giving advice to people on the internet. The risk with my advice is that people use affection incorrectly and need a trainer to help them correct that. The risk with your advice is that they use an ill-fitting prong incorrectly and collapse their dog's trachea. The risk factors are different, and the risks of recommending prongs (without explaining how to fit them or how to use them) are infinitely higher than me telling people "teach your dog what you want it to do, don't constantly correct".

I'm not recommending that you stop telling people your opinion and how you do things. It has clearly worked for you, and that's not my place. And I will never come back at you with flippancy, or sarcasm, or rudeness. I'm an adult, and I have learned how to disagree with others respectfully. However, I will disagree with you every time you recommend a prong to someone with a puppy. And you will disagree with me every time I say "corrections are pointless". It's probably something we should learn to live with.

 

[season]

Great point...now back to the originally scheduled program.

 

[CeeCee]

Are you asking OP, or in general? If you're asking in general, I taught Titan by first luring him forward with treats and allowing him to stop and look around if he got overwhelmed. I also attached the leash to his collar and ran around in the yard with him to allow him to get used to the leash in general. Then we went on short walks with one of the other dogs, then eventually on our own. He did start to pull eventually, so I immediately began carrying treats in my pocket and luring him into a heel by holding the treat and only allowing him to eat the treat if he was at my side. Now he walks with his head at my knee in a flat collar without a leash at 6.5 months old (though I leash him if I'm taking him anywhere there's traffic, just in case). There are a lot of ways to teach puppies how to walk on leashes, though, and it's highly dependent on how the puppy reacts to new things of

Thanks! It was a general question...assuming a blank slate. Both of mine came from our shelter with unknown backgrounds and not good leash manners so we had to go into management and teaching mode rather quickly. (They were both around 80 lbs at the time so we also had size to deal with.) I did A LOT of "focus," "fancy footwork," and giving space work with them. My next pup will hopefully be just that - a puppy with a blank slate. (If I screw it up it will be all on me. )

 

[Hiraeth]

Thanks! It was a general question...assuming a blank slate. Both of mine came from our shelter with unknown backgrounds and not good leash manners so we had to go into management and teaching mode rather quickly. (They were both around 80 lbs at the time so we also had size to deal with.) I did A LOT of "focus," "fancy footwork," and giving space work with them. My next pup will hopefully be just that - a puppy with a blank slate. (If I screw it up it will be all on me. )

My rescues were a billion times harder to train to walk and heel than my puppy. Literally. A billion. They were horrible. I think you will find that you have a much easier time with a blank slate puppy

 

[Wilsy]

We use a flat collar for general walking and a flat collar with a harness for hiking, more for safety than anything else (we once had to help Wilson out of the water onto the bank using his harness). What you use is really down to individual preference.