we have babies :)

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I don't think that anyone who is passionate about the mastiffs and having to work in rescues and shelters is ever okay with hearing an oops happened. There are some valid questions that are asked above that even if it is an oops litter are things you or your friend should be looking into and discussing what the outcome should be. Your boy not being interested before and making it to 4 years of age is not an indication that nothing would happen, it probably just means that the other females weren't in standing heat so he wasn't likely to waste his time.

Also liking the birth of puppies to children is apples to oranges, children are not euthanized daily due to over-population and this is something that touches a lot of people who have worked in rescue or shelters so you have to understand you touch a bit of a nerve with people when you sound excited or happy over your oops puppies.

It is also a good time to plead to others if you are planning to keep your animal intact (whether for breeding, or because you don't believe in spaying/neutering) ensure you know how the reproductive cycles of the canine work and keep your pet safe.

 

[CROFTY]

People..Having crossed words about thing's such as litters of cross breeds is not going change the fact that they already exist.We all have opinions and i understand that this is an open disscusion..But come on is it realy worth kicking up a fuss...?.I would personally only ever have a pure breed but i know people and family members who have had cross breeds.Each to their own.

 

[Cody]

Well said Mary---^---

I did notice that in Lorrimonster's response you never answered my questions.
And you are right I wasn't there, that doesn't change the facts what so ever. The fact being that if your friend doesn't have the slightest clue about their dogs reproductive cycle, nor did you ask (having been in a family of breeders for 27 years), that you both, by leaving 2 intact dogs unsupervised are irresponsible.
I do love Mastiffs, as do the people on this forum, that means I want the best for the breeds. What you did did not benefit either breed.
I have spent too many years in rescue and foster, picking up the pieces of the accidental litters to be nicey nice.
As for the children and race comment, common really? Do you really believe that your argument was anything besides absurd?
Did you really think that everyone on this forum would be all happy happy joy joy that you are having puppies, not a clue that some may not be thrilled for you?
Have you not read the horror stories that some members (including myself) have been through because of negligent "breeders" or people out to make a quick buck off the back of their dogs?
You may not consider your self among those, but the minute you allowed your dogs to breed, cause "they would have cute pups" or "they have the best temperament" that is indeed what you became.
You may think I am harsh and a b*tch and honestly I am okay with that.
Oh and as for your comment about ripping out the reproductive system, I am fine with leaving animals intact. In fact I have 3 dogs, 1 male 2 females all intact all in our home, and you know what DOESN'T happen here? It is called being responsible.

 

[Ellen Sneve]

WHOOO HOOOOO! What Cody said. Read up on estrus cycles, because your 27 years of knowledge doesn't seem to be helping you much.

 

[moose]

Great posts cody and shadow I completely agree

 

[Cody]

I actually have another question to add, at first you say the female is your buddies dog, then you go on to talk about whelping and leaving your 15 year old to finish. So do you own the female or is it your friends dog?
It just doesn't really add up.

 

[Danté Vivi & Bella's Mom]

Mary and Cody, you have covered this quite nicely and I see no reason to be redundant.

Lorri, we await your formulation of a reasonably intelligent response and consistent representation of facts, should you elect to provide either of the aforementioned.

Considering the content or lack thereof found in your previous posts, I will caution you however, that silence is sometimes the best response.

 

[Mom_of_kozmo]

I am unsure why everyone is so pissed about "mixed breeds" isnt that how they got to the "perfect" EM was my mixing breeds, also most of the "pure" bred are inbred. Don't have sex with your neighbor but its ok to have sex with your niece....just doesn't sit well with me.

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------

If you are all concerned about over population of dogs in the grand scheme then you all should quit breeding and go adopt shelter dogs yourself because the "rescue" mastiffs were pure breds who ended up being abandoned so i think we have an overabundance of pure breds and shouldnt be allowed to breed more until all dog population is under control.

 

[Mom_of_kozmo]

If you are all concerned about over population of dogs in the grand scheme then you all should quit breeding and go adopt shelter dogs yourself because the "rescue" mastiffs were pure breds who ended up being abandoned so i think we have an overabundance of pure breds and shouldnt be allowed to breed more until all dog population is under control.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

If you are all concerned about over population of dogs in the grand scheme then you all should quit breeding and go adopt shelter dogs yourself because the "rescue" mastiffs were pure breds who ended up being abandoned so i think we have an overabundance of pure breds and shouldnt be allowed to breed more until all dog population is under control.

Mixing breeds is how we got our breeds yes, but these breeds have standards that been locked in place for, in some cases hundreds of years as a pure breds. So to see someone having an oops litter that has the potential to end up in shelters/rescues that many people on this board have helped with, do rescue or foster or have in the past can have people more than a little piqued!

The overpopulation in shelters and rescues is for the most part not from "responsible breeders". Responsible breeders take back any dogs they breed regardless of reason or age. Or do you mean that people that purchase a puppy from a breeder would have gotten one from a rescue or shelter if some of us hadn't been breeding. Sorry but I doubt it, there are a lot of people who have kids that aren't comfortable rescuing dogs while they are young because they don't know the back history on a dog. Does this make them a bad person for wanting to start with a puppy, that they can shape and mold to one that fits their family life and get them used to the atmosphere from the start? That has the correct temperament instead of the unstable temperament that a lot of BYB dog have that are usually the ones in shelters (this is not all the dogs and there are some there with amazing temperament and if you are lucky to get one of these I congratulate you). I don't think so. I completely support rescuing or going to a shelter if you have no specific desire for a breed (and even then you can do breed specific rescues) if you prefer a particular breed. I can tell you in my breed seeing a correct tempered corso is amazing and something to behold, it is one of the main reasons that I love my breed! I can certainly tell you that most of the BYB dogs that are in shelters do not have a true temperament, there are fear aggressive, dog aggressive, aggressive in general, have separation anxiety just to name a few issues and that doesn't include the health issues that BYB don't screen for.

I also enjoy dog activities like conformation, obedience and such and the challenge of improving on what I have started with. If that makes me a bad person then that is what I am. But just so you are aware my dogs certainly don't judge me for it (and their opinions matter much more than yours) and in fact are the one of the happiest to see me at the end of the night!

 

[Kiloteague]

If you are all concerned about over population of dogs in the grand scheme then you all should quit breeding and go adopt shelter dogs yourself because the "rescue" mastiffs were pure breds who ended up being abandoned so i think we have an overabundance of pure breds and shouldnt be allowed to breed more until all dog population is under control.

Agreed

This is all very funny to me. This is my first post. I have to post because I think what I am hearing is ridiculous really. This is like people that own Bentleys saying, there is no place for a ford. I still really dont know what the main concern is. As someone who is not a Purebred, or die kind of person, I cannot relate to what is being said. Ive owned unpapered pits, that I paid 250$ for each. They were and still are very pretty, but are the 100% stafford, or 100% APBT? No. But they are still pretty as heck and Ive had them for 9 years now, and I love them to death. My point is this, purebred or cross, it doesnt really matter. Its all in the eye of the beholder, and the wallet size. They both can be loved for ever, and they both can end up in the rescue. There is a market for both. Many dont want or cant pay 1000$ and up for a dog. These dogs will be beauties and they will go to a family who wants a nice pretty dog at a smaller price point. You know what they say about BMW drivers...you know they are all snobs, well a lot of you sound like that. I know you mean well, but your just ignorant to the fact there are a lot of people who drive used fords, and not just new bentley's. Obviously most of you are all about the purebred Mastiff breeds, I get that. But you must realize you are a very very very small portion of the pet people world. There are 100x more people that will take a mutt. There are more people in this world that drive Ford than Mercedes. Just like there are more people that buy mutt than purebred best of breed etc. You people are stuck in your purebred Mastiff world. Dont worry, the people that buy her dogs arent in your world, they could care less about purebred this purbred that. They just want a friendly companion at a good price. I could understand if the crossbreeds were all getting dumped on the side of the road, but it seems there are more purebreds that need rescuing. Im sure these crossbreds will get bought and loved for being dogs, where as many of the purbreds we see are dollar signs before they are companions.

---------- Post added at 06:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 AM ----------

Just to be clear, I want to get a purebred Boerboel, CC, or Presa next. Ive had a Purbred Rott and two unpapered pits. My Rott died at 11 about a year ago. My pits are boys from the same litter, and they are 9 and are the sweetest dogs you will ever see.

 

[Kiloteague]

Just to be clear, I want to get a purebred Boerboel, CC, or Presa next. Ive had a Purbred Rott and two unpapered pits. My Rott died at 11 about a year ago. My pits are boys from the same litter, and they are 9 and are the sweetest dogs you will ever see.

 

[OdeMX]

Well, we finally have babies.. we weren't sure at first.. My EM was hanging out with our friend BM, and well, it's been confirmed...
He did the deed..1st time ever (he's almost 4)

Awesome! Put some pics, what's more, put a puppy in the border of Texas and Mexico and I'll go pick it up!

 

[OdeMX]

Lori, we await your formulation of a reasonably intelligent response and consistent representation of facts, should you elect to provide either of the aforementioned.

Or....? You completely forgot to add a consequence!!!! I'll help you fix your wrongdoing:

a) she/he will lead an angry mob to kill your abominations.

b) you will be banned from this forum and no one will say "hi" to you at the park.

c) she will call the AKC special forces to seize your "Dr. Moreauian" facilities.

So you young lady better get serious about this

Lol, seriously... give her a break, puppies already born so nothing much she can do now, but uploading some pics!!!

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

No one said there was anything wrong with mutts! We did refuse to celebrate her oops litter for valid reason... there are enough of these dogs in shelters and rescues. If people don't want to pay a breeder those dogs certainly can use a home. I tell my puppy buyers and anyone that asks... if you have trouble with the purchase price then maybe a mastiff isn't for you, because in the end for most of us the initial purchase price is the cheapest part of getting these dogs, when you take into account, food, vet bills, training, etc. RESPONSIBLE breeders take anything they produce no matter what! See the key word there? Buying mutts is what makes BYB come alive... seeing all those $$$. Like you said there are lots of people that prefer a mutt so support a rescue or shelter and not BYBers!

There are as many people on here with mutts as there are with purebreds and they are some of the people that commented on this thread as well, giving the same view point as us with the PBs.

In the end everyone is entitled to their opinion, and in this case it will be agree to disagree!

PS I have PBs and they are in no way a Bentley! There is a reason one of my girls is called HEMI

 

[GavTheMighty]

Just because I feel like joining in for fun as in truth I have seen a lot of snobbery on a lot of different pure breed forums am I to understand that it's more to do with the fact that she is using words such as accidental etc when you believe it not to be and the fact that you feel her lack of knowledge on the subject of breeding is basicly offensive and well annoying, that coupled with the over population of rescue centers etc is that whats getting to some of you? I just want to make sure I am clear on the subject?

I also gather then based on what you said if she was to come here and state that both dogs had very sound temprements and were purebreeds EM and BM with history etc and that she knew everything there was to know about dogs including reproductive knowledge and that she had also had a battery of tests done on both dogs, hip scores etc etc and believed the crossing of these two breeds could produce a new super dog or at the very least a new blend that would benefit man-kind or somesuch and they it was a longtime planned litter then everything would be good and we could all rejoice? Again I am just trying to find out if I have this correctly.

 

[NeoBull]

For me the biggest problems aren't the fact that the puppies are mixed... if the parents were old enough, had all the appropriate genetic health testing for their breeds, had excellent temperament/temperament tested, had their conformation evaluated by an outside party, there is reason to believe that the dam and sire will complement each others conformations, working titles would be great, a goal or remotely valid reason for wanting to breed the mix (other than hey, we have an EM and we have a BM why not?), if they had homes lined up prior to breeding the dogs, spay/neuter contracts on the dogs, planned to take any of the dogs back at any time during it's life to ensure that NONE of the dogs they bred EVER landed in a shelter or rescue, etc, etc... then sure, I'll congratulate you. I don't think there are many mixed breedings out there where the breeder took the time and money to try to do things remotely "right/reputably/ethically", most people breeding purebreds don't even do it!

So I more a snob about HOW you're breeding than about WHAT you're breeding.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I also gather then based on what you said if she was to come here and state that both dogs had very sound temprements and were purebreeds EM and BM with history etc and that she knew everything there was to know about dogs including reproductive knowledge and that she had also had a battery of tests done on both dogs, hip scores etc etc and believed the crossing of these two breeds could produce a new super dog or at the very least a new blend that would benefit man-kind or somesuch and they it was a longtime planned litter then everything would be good and we could all rejoice? Again I am just trying to find out if I have this correctly.

If this was indeed the case I have no problem with it whatsoever! But have a purpose and maintain strict records and do your research, testing, etc. like other responsible breeders.

An example... Labradoodles, there was a great article on here talking about how the inventor regretted creating them. He did it for a reason, poodles didn't make great dogs for helping with disabilities but labs did. But then there was an issue of people with allergies to them So he crossed the two, genetically testing the pups to see which ones were actually hypoallergenic so that those labradoodles were the ones that were trained from the litter. He had a goal and kept records on his litters, I don't know if he did health testing on the parents or not as I am not familiar with that kind of program but I am assuming that some sort of testing is done so that people don't get an aid dog and then it develop something like HD because it was present in the parents.

I agree with Neobull completely and very well said I might add.

 

[OdeMX]

What do dedicated breeders (whats the name for eugenics breeders? official breeders? Pro breeders?) do with unsold puppies?

 

[GavTheMighty]

You have to understand in all of this no matter how you view what I post I am actually just getting all your views and making sure I am correct in what your writing. I say this to clarify I am not taking sides or trolling. I have to say reading through all this though that I can see both points of view as in the one side which states dogs have always been mixed and there is no such thing as a true Pure breed and that often through history dogs have been bred for many a purpose and not just for working. The fact is a lot of breeds that exsist today wouldn't be around quite possibly if it wasn't for so called backstreet breeders or people just out to make a profit. And in effect these people have tested these crosses and the temprements on so called pure breeds of today for us prehaps just not in an ethical way. Also and here lays the problem for me there are very very few truly great or moral and ethical breeders on this planet. So most are not trying to further the breed they are just making money which then brings into play the fact that these dogs have just as many if not more due to inbreeding health issues and issues with temprement as pretty much any other mutt around.

I have to agree with the fact that I too think there are too many dogs though especially dogs that serve no real purpose or are designer dogs as they call them. I mean take my little one or should I say the wifes little dog Hercules look I wont lie I have some affection for him now because I have spent time with the little animal. And he is cute and cuddly and a good dog etc, So do I like small toy breed dogs now? Hell no I think they should be stopped and there should be no more made on the planet lol they are a waste of space and time they can barely defend themselves let alone anyone else and they are pretty much the product of breeding the weakest and smallest basicly the genetic screw ups. So my point is yes I think your also right in the respect that breeders should know a LOT about the animals at hand there should be many tests ran from health through to temprement and these animals should be produced to either keep an exsisting pure breed going in healthy and loving fashion or prehaps to create new and varied healthy dogs that can still provide a service.

It's a very hard and heated topic to dive into is the bottom line..................as I said even if you don't believe so I think some of the hated breeders or people that have no real love for dogs and just see money have actually without trying also actually helped in bringing us some of the dogs of today that we love lol. So........erm Shrug................