To Prong or Not to Prong

[rcnd82]

Glad it went well. Not to be too much of a psychologist but it is as if the prong establishes a clear boundary that allows the young dog the freedom and direction to be able to control his own emotions without conflicting impulses.

Maybe I can try a prong on my 13 year old son .......

 

[Siloh]

Glad it went well. Not to be too much of a psychologist but it is as if the prong establishes a clear boundary that allows the young dog the freedom and direction to be able to control his own emotions without conflicting impulses.

Maybe I can try a prong on my 13 year old son .......

I definitely think that how clearly the message gets through actually leads to a less confused dog who feels more confident about what's going on. It provides immediate correction the moment the line is crossed and relaxation all other times. So Hamlet definitely seems happier being able to sit next to someone and get a pat rather than being kept completely away from them due to his inclination to bounce and jump. Plus, unlike with treats, I don't have to CONSTANTLY stimulate him with commands and feedback etc. or redirect his attention constantly. He can pay attention to what he wants to, he just is more calm and stays in heel.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[ruthcatrin]

Slippage due to neck wrinkles isn't an uncommon problem here. Or in my case, slippage due to fluffy neck ruff!

 

[Siloh]

Man, the boy is even way calmer when he comes in from walking, as if because I don't demand his attention constantly with commands and treats he is getting a more relaxing form of physical stimulation that doesn't require him to be as mentally on edge, which causes an outburst when he gets back inside. I just love this so far.

I just tried a quick trot with the quick release snapped to the second jeweled chain link and it seemed to fit a bit better. I was able to snap a few pictures of it on him.

Here is how damn tiny Hamlet's neck apparently is

Here it is when Hamlet decided to stop and chew on his stick during his free period:

Here it is fitted before we left:

Look about right?

Is it bad to snap it one link up? The quick release admittedly doesn't snap open quite as readily, but that seems like an issue of tension more than anything. His neck is long and skinny--reminds me of a dobe.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[ruthcatrin]

I wouldn't want it any tighter than that, but it looks good otherwise.

Man, the boy is even way calmer when he comes in from walking, as if because I don't demand his attention constantly with commands and treats he is getting a more relaxing form of physical stimulation that doesn't require him to be as mentally on edge, which causes an outburst when he gets back inside. I just love this so far.

Thats one of my biggest complaints about that style of teaching. The dog is taught that they have to be CONSTANTLY stimulated. And on some dogs they CANNOT manage if they aren't, and at the same time the constant stimulation does negetive things to them....

 

[season]

Looks llike a good fit...you don't want it sloppy. You should be able to move it around his neck by grabbing the top and bottom.

[video=youtube;h3xxSBxVikc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3xxSBxVikc[/video]

 

[season]

I wouldn't want it any tighter than that, but it looks good otherwise.



Thats one of my biggest complaints about that style of teaching. The dog is taught that they have to be CONSTANTLY stimulated. And on some dogs they CANNOT manage if they aren't, and at the same time the constant stimulation does negetive things to them....

Another touche'....dogs should be able to calmly entertain themselves by relaxing and not constantly looking for attention.

 

[Siloh]

Hamlet did the prong plus the backpack for the first time today. He was STELLAR. Hamlet loves his backpack.

My only issue so far is that he will occasionally protest a correction by biting at the leash. I really think this is just him disagreeing with the rules from time to time though and rebelling. He doesn't seem nearly as frustrated as I expected him to be going from constant treats to the prong. On the contrary, I get less frustrated with him on the prong and give him more freedom in terms of allowing him to be closer to people we talk to because I am more confident and can interact more freely with people (rather than constantly working with him to regain his attention in the first minutes of chatting). So, I actually think he is less frustrated than he was able to be when mirroring my frustration in keeping his focus. Hm. Hope that all makes sense.

But the leash biting is annoying. Ignoring him has not been working, but doing kind of a "reset" with him where I ask him to sit, regain calm, and then continue seems to work.

The sound of the chain definitely has a positive effect on him. He is pretty good about hearing a slight slip of the chain and adjusting his pace.

Today Hamlet walked past two men and two boys (maybe like 10 and 12) and was politely curious (air sniffing) but largely aloof, then one of the men stopped and walked toward us with his hand out for Hamlet's nose. I said, "Oh, please don't do that," but even as I said it, Hamlet's whole greeting ritual was so much calmer than usual. He wiggled but kept all four feet planted and was moving very slowly forward with his head down to sniff. I still don't think people should greet him off the bat like that, and I would say the same thing again, but I was pretty impressed with his progress.

He is definitely learning that the prong WILL prevent him from lunging or jumping, and he doesn't seem to have hit the end of it hard enough to really feel pain so much as a very, very uncomfortable deterrent. It is definitely a plus I think that he knew the rules before I implemented a prong, so he is definitely not confused by the correction for behaviors he already knows are undesirable to me.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[ruthcatrin]

I dealt with a brief leash biting stage with Arty, picking up an inexpensive chain leash fixed it quick.

And good!

 

[LizB]

I dealt with a brief leash biting stage with Arty, picking up an inexpensive chain leash fixed it quick.

And good!

I love this solution!

I had a dog that was impossible with the prong, it really escalated his excitement and made him nuts, and I wound up going back to the martingale, but the backpack with water bottles was truly the answer for this dog.

My dane/GSD had ZERO leash training at 8 months when we got him and he was impossible until I got a prong on him. I was worried, because he is pretty soft fellow, but the prong does beautifully and he glides along beside me like silk - took no time at all. He seemed to really get it. I prefer smaller, rather than larger links, but it depends on the dog and the quality of the collar.

 

[Gingerman]

My Cane Corso immediately relaxed when a prong goes on him. Still, he will lune at selective dogs and people. He's very strong. The prong isn't sipping him, and we've had to stop walking for now.

To circumstance the " you need to start with basic training." folks, we have had him in training for 2 years. He sits, he stays, he places, you don't even hold a ball while balancing on a chair. Still there are some people he just doesn't like and some dogs he just doesn't like. When that comes up, its hard to stop him.

How do I go from here?

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[Gingerman]

More courage than I. Blue (Cane Corso), will be fine, then boom, he'll decide to go after some person or dog I don't know what his standards are or how he makes his choices. But even if I noticed he's approaching threshold, it's too late. Again, 0 to 60 right now. I've been on my belly dragged down the street more than once.

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[LizB]

My Cane Corso immediately relaxed when a prong goes on him. Still, he will lune at selective dogs and people. He's very strong. The prong isn't sipping him, and we've had to stop walking for now.

To circumstance the " you need to start with basic training." folks, we have had him in training for 2 years. He sits, he stays, he places, you don't even hold a ball while balancing on a chair. Still there are some people he just doesn't like and some dogs he just doesn't like. When that comes up, its hard to stop him.

How do I go from here?

This may be a dog that a prong is not appropriate for. The bottom line is that the dog is making decisions and acting upon them independent of you or your wishes. You are ignored when the switch is thrown. This is the issue that needs work. The obedience work needs to be increased so he looks to YOU for cues and only acts for himself only under emergency situations, like a true physical attack against you. I understand you've been training him, but there is a piece missing, otherwise he'd not behave this way and get out of your control.

I speak from experience and am not making casual judgments on your training techniques - don't get me wrong. This is similar to my dane mix that I could NOT use the prong on - his excitement was high, though I could not see it, and the prong ramped up the excitement for him without me realizing it. Switched back to martingale and used a backpack, and worked on reducing his excitement for leaving the house. He would "lie down" and put his body in the positions that he thought would reflect "calmness," knowing that I usually would release him to go for the walk when he got into those positions, but in reality he was quite excited, and his body was slightly quivering if you looked closely. I had to wait and wait and wait until he got tired of holding the position and made him TRULY relax in his mind, not just his body position. I had to have others observe him when he would suddenly lunge and go off, and we finally figured out that he felt he was protecting me, but in the process he was literally knocking me down and dragging me along. I could not perceive his state of mind from that close, at the end of the leash, and it took a lot of frustrating work for this particular dog.

In the spirit of not totally hijacking the thread, lol, I will reiterate that the prong worsened the issue for me and this dog in particular, and your story is very familiar. You may want to start your own thread and go into greater detail about your CC, Gingerman.

 

[rcnd82]

But the leash biting is annoying. Ignoring him has not been working, but doing kind of a "reset" with him where I ask him to sit, regain calm, and then continue seems to work.

Ruth's suggestion is a good one. I have also a) walked so that I pull the leash straight up directly over my BM head so he cannot bite it while saying "no bite" and b) threaded the leash through 8 to 12 inches of pvc pipe so that he cannot bite the leash.......it took awhile but when he was a puppy I thought it was "cute" that he grabbed the leash in his mouth to "walk himself"........ inexperienced owner.

 

[Siloh]

Ruth's suggestion is a good one. I have also a) walked so that I pull the leash straight up directly over my BM head so he cannot bite it while saying "no bite" and b) threaded the leash through 8 to 12 inches of pvc pipe so that he cannot bite the leash.......it took awhile but when he was a puppy I thought it was "cute" that he grabbed the leash in his mouth to "walk himself"........ inexperienced owner.

I have done item A and it has worked well. That is usually what I do before asking for a sit to calm down. I do want to get a chain attachment. I just want a leather traffic lead so badly and I know I can't get one if biting is an issue, as biting the leather will probably be a highly rewarding experience for him since he is teething still.

Hamlet is doing SO WELL. My sister in law came over last night and I put on the prong and leashed Hamlet for an introduction. He has really stopped all the jumping nonsense and can now even go right up to people for some love keeping all four paws on the ground. I'm still working on making sure he isn't being pushy with people's personal space, but, people--people, THIS IS HUGEEEE.

People can totally hijack my thread. This was referenced in another post. I will be proud if it becomes a resource for lots of people. Good stuff stored in these pages.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[ruthcatrin]

Hamlet is doing SO WELL. My sister in law came over last night and I put on the prong and leashed Hamlet for an introduction. He has really stopped all the jumping nonsense and can now even go right up to people for some love keeping all four paws on the ground. I'm still working on making sure he isn't being pushy with people's personal space, but, people--people, THIS IS HUGEEEE.

Awesome!

on a note, Its not that I object to highjacking (cause I do my share of it) but when its a legitimate question like Gingerman's its easier to keep straight who I'm talking to if its posted in its own thread, if that makes sense!

 

[Siloh]

I also think the nature of Gingerman's problem deserves its own thread. It sounds like the prong is part of the solution but that there is something else going on. It's definitely not a problem I can speak to since Hamlet loves everyone as long as they are 30+ feet away from our property.

Just now Ham and I took a brief trot to prepare for shutting in for the night--a thunderstorm is brewing. Two little girls on roller skates skated right up to him. He did bounce, but it was more like a play bow than a lunge. He sat (with a whine of protest) when I asked and then we walked away. I think he startled the girls more than they startled him though. I'm a proud momma. He can even sit on the park bench with our neighborhood friend now like a civilized dog, although he does try to sneak a kiss or two.

All in all, the prong has meant more walks for Hamlet doing more fun stuff. I don't have to prepare for the long process of gaining and then maintaining his attention, and I am no longer tense when people approach us closely, so we can just cruise along and go for a quick stroll whenever the mood strikes.

For people worried about hurting their dog, I am now positive I am not hurting Hamlet, because when it started blowing up outside as the storm got close he got freaky deaky puppy zoomies, and although the prong discouraged him and aided in managing his wild romping, it was not a deterrent enough for him to stop altogether. If it REALLY hurt, I think he would stop, since he is not confused about how the prong works (come close and be calm = slack, running around like a lunatic = squeeze). This kind of behavior though, IMO, would be dangerous with a dog on a choke chain. It may look less scary, but that is a lie!


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[LizB]

I am so impressed with Hamlet's progress, and every little victory like this gives him confidence and teaches him the way you want him to behave. Awesome!

Sometimes I think the prong is kinder than the choke, which is not limited, and if there is some sort of mishap the dog can literally choke. I think of the properly used prong as like when the mother dog picks the baby up by the scruff - most animals (cats too) go limp when handled in this way, and it sends a message to the dog to snap out of it. Improperly used, though, it can feel punitive to the dog.

 

[Hector]

You guys are doing great. Have you tried reverting to a martingale and seeing how he responds to that?

 

[Siloh]

You guys are doing great. Have you tried reverting to a martingale and seeing how he responds to that?

No, although I've been considering different ways I might achieve generalization with the progress we have on the prong collar. I'm wondering if I should begin using the dead ring in say a week or two if he is doing really well. I think in another say 10-20 days I should start seeing his achievements settle into learned habits.

This is something exciting and kind of embarrassing. Hamlet never properly learned stay or a reliable down. So this week I got sick of myself putting it off and hunkered down with him outside for some OB. He did so well that he has learned how to go from a down-stay with me walking away to a heel off leash. But this is another achievement that has me wondering what the next step will be re: prong.

BUT...
(Prematurely sent, continues below)