Tibetan Mastiff(China version) and Caucaisan Ovcharka

[kbuchanan66]

Soo I was bored (At work on a Friday) so I Googled some images of TB's. Well they popped up and I got confused for a second as I swear that an image of a CO came up (I remember seeing the same picture a couple months ago when I was searching for CO).. So it got me thinking.... the pictures I was seeing of the TB seemed to be what I have heard referred to as the "China" version.(Over fluffy, giant maned giants). Do you think China used the CO in order to get the over fluffy look as well as more protective guardian size? I don't know a lot about the history of either breeds. Any input would be welcomed!

 

[ruthcatrin]

They deliberetly over bred the "lion coat" type dogs thats for sure. I don't know that they had to breed anything else in to do it, though I'd not be shocked at all to find proof that they did.


For comparison:

This is a fairly current picture of Apollo's littermate Aslan (full winter coat)


And Apollo (also taken this past winter)


Same parents. Neither parent is a lion coat. Neither parent is overly large. Apollo measures 28" at the shoulder (nicely comfortablely sized), while Aslan is over 30". I don't think it would be THAT hard to over breed the larger lion coated dogs to produce what China's producing, I really don't.

 

[kbuchanan66]

They deliberetly over bred the "lion coat" type dogs thats for sure. I don't know that they had to breed anything else in to do it, though I'd not be shocked at all to find proof that they did.


For comparison:

This is a fairly current picture of Apollo's littermate Aslan (full winter coat)
View attachment 24158

And Apollo (also taken this past winter)
View attachment 24159

Same parents. Neither parent is a lion coat. Neither parent is overly large. Apollo measures 28" at the shoulder (nicely comfortablely sized), while Aslan is over 30". I don't think it would be THAT hard to over breed the larger lion coated dogs to produce what China's producing, I really don't.

wow! I would have never thought those two are FULL brothers and from the same litter. They look completely different from body type to the hair.

I guess it is not a far shot they just bred the fluffiest coat female to the fluffiest coat male to produce Fluffier puppies. The China version and North America version just seem REALLY REALLy different...like there was something else used down in the blood line.

I was also hearing that a lot of the CO that are shown as CO's tend to have TB in the bloodline somewhere. But you can't really believe what people say I guess.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Well, I suspect there's been some "unintentional" picking of the "less" coated dogs outside of China. But the lion coat does pop up in unexpected places. Now yes, at least one of Apollo & Aslan's ancestors had it (Great Grand-dad was the first TM to take the breed at Westmisnter and had a lion coat), but still.

I'd not be surprised if they've added in something else, especially considering the HUGE sizes that are being reported, the "world's most expensive dog" was reported to weigh 175lbs at less than a year. I always hoped that that figure was mis-translated somewhere, but if so no one ever bothered to correct it......

As for mixing in general. I pretty much always assumed that the original breeders were "out" crossing. They didn't care about breed standards or what color was allowed, they cared about working ability, and if this imported dog had a skill that they wanted in their bloodline then they'd sure as heck breed him in.

 

[ruthcatrin]

And yes, Aslan makes Apollo look dainty. He has pretty much from day one lol

 

[kbuchanan66]

And yes, Aslan makes Apollo look dainty. He has pretty much from day one lol

Hahaha!! I didn't want to say anything but yes...yes he does lol.

 

[kbuchanan66]

Well, I suspect there's been some "unintentional" picking of the "less" coated dogs outside of China. But the lion coat does pop up in unexpected places. Now yes, at least one of Apollo & Aslan's ancestors had it (Great Grand-dad was the first TM to take the breed at Westmisnter and had a lion coat), but still.

I'd not be surprised if they've added in something else, especially considering the HUGE sizes that are being reported, the "world's most expensive dog" was reported to weigh 175lbs at less than a year. I always hoped that that figure was mis-translated somewhere, but if so no one ever bothered to correct it......

As for mixing in general. I pretty much always assumed that the original breeders were "out" crossing. They didn't care about breed standards or what color was allowed, they cared about working ability, and if this imported dog had a skill that they wanted in their bloodline then they'd sure as heck breed him in.

175lbs at not even a year?! *insert eye popping here* That is crazy and definitely does not seem realistic at all. Not for a Pure.

I do agree with you on the last part. If you were looking for just a working ability and something else had it why wouldn't you? At least their way of thinking. They did not think like people here do in this age. Now it is more about Blood lines.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

From what I understand the Chinese are breeding the TM with the Chow and Neo to get the massive, overly exaggerated coat and wrinkle. These are called the Chinese TM and look nothing like the original TM, which is much closer to Apollo and Mooshi if you look at the old photos of them with their native people. The big 'red' TM that you see in so many images that was bought for almost a million dollars and died recently because its owner decided it needed a face lift is, IMO, the result of mixed breeding. This is just my opinion but if this dog was a true TM then it would not have needed a face lift! A TM does not look like a massive chow!

 

[kbuchanan66]

From what I understand the Chinese are breeding the TM with the Chow and Neo to get the massive, overly exaggerated coat and wrinkle. These are called the Chinese TM and look nothing like the original TM, which is much closer to Apollo and Mooshi if you look at the old photos of them with their native people. The big 'red' TM that you see in so many images that was bought for almost a million dollars and died recently because its owner decided it needed a face lift is, IMO, the result of mixed breeding. This is just my opinion but if this dog was a true TM then it would not have needed a face lift! A TM does not look like a massive chow!

Chow makes sense for the fluffiness. I was just curios as to why there was a huge difference in looks.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

It drives me insane what is happening to this rare and primitive breed with no thought other than money and looks! From what I have read you can buy pups from the trunk of a car....there is no care or thought given to health or temperament, only to money. Its so sad that this breed has now become a news worthy subject and that's not because people are interested in the true TM but the man made, over exaggerated, over priced mixed breed that looks like a stuffed toy. Not for me Im afraid.

 

[kbuchanan66]

It drives me insane what is happening to this rare and primitive breed with no thought other than money and looks! From what I have read you can buy pups from the trunk of a car....there is no care or thought given to health or temperament, only to money. Its so sad that this breed has now become a news worthy subject and that's not because people are interested in the true TM but the man made, over exaggerated, over priced mixed breed that looks like a stuffed toy. Not for me Im afraid.

Anything that is fluffy and toy like gets bought. Look at Pomeranians, I remember when Chows were really popular in the 90's.

I have also read that in China they are sold out of vehicles and at markets. I hate to think how the parents are treated.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

like a money making commodity.

 

[ruthcatrin]

From what I understand the Chinese are breeding the TM with the Chow and Neo to get the massive, overly exaggerated coat and wrinkle. These are called the Chinese TM and look nothing like the original TM, which is much closer to Apollo and Mooshi if you look at the old photos of them with their native people. The big 'red' TM that you see in so many images that was bought for almost a million dollars and died recently because its owner decided it needed a face lift is, IMO, the result of mixed breeding. This is just my opinion but if this dog was a true TM then it would not have needed a face lift! A TM does not look like a massive chow!

it wouldn't surprise me. I can even see the thought process. You start with a dog like Aslan, who's big and extra fluffy, but you want BIGGER and HEAVIER boned, so you cross in the Neo, but that looses some of that impressive coat, so then you cross in a large chow.....and in the mean time the dog is no longer really a primitive, and has a coat thats insane to care for, and has the health problems of a Neo.....

 

[BradA1878]

I know of several top CO stud dogs who have been sold to China for $15k+ ... so I'm pretty certain the Chinese are mixing CO (and anything else) in to create the very overdone TMs you see today in China.

 

[chuckorlando]

Well I nevr noticed before. But that link has a black dog in the front of the pic... It sure looks a little funny in the face compared to apollo

 

[ruthcatrin]

which link?

 

[chuckorlando]

http://www.tibetanmastiffinfo.com/pedigree/details.php?id=10870 Looks like the muzzle is shorter and face is fatter

 

[ruthcatrin]

I'm still not spotting which dog you're talking about, but I'm still working on my morning coffee so that doesn't mean much.

What you're seeing could be a couple things. The fluffier the dog (or the fluffier its been groomed to be) the wider/bigger the head will look resulting in a fater face and "shorter" muzzle in perspective. Also older dogs can look like that as their skin loosens. And it could be the angle of hte picture, Apollo does this thing where he tucks his head up and stares down his nose in disgust, if I took a picture straight on of him doing that his face would look fat too (its actually a funny look, I'll see if I can catch it).

 

[kbuchanan66]

I'm still not spotting which dog you're talking about, but I'm still working on my morning coffee so that doesn't mean much.

What you're seeing could be a couple things. The fluffier the dog (or the fluffier its been groomed to be) the wider/bigger the head will look resulting in a fater face and "shorter" muzzle in perspective. Also older dogs can look like that as their skin loosens. And it could be the angle of hte picture, Apollo does this thing where he tucks his head up and stares down his nose in disgust, if I took a picture straight on of him doing that his face would look fat too (its actually a funny look, I'll see if I can catch it).

please do it sounds comical!