What's new
Mastiff Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Welcome back!

    We decided to spruce things up and fix some things under the hood. If you notice any issues, feel free to contact us as we're sure there are a few things here or there that we might have missed in our upgrade.

Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

That is the usual theory, and I mostly agree with it.....its just that Apollo doesn't!

Thats awesome, Apollo has no stealth skills (except for being naturally soft footed), though he's got reaction speed to make up for it lol
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Tessa is soft footed as well & can tip-toe & sneak, & is quieter than my cats when she wants to be.

But clumsy--she still steps on me, the cats...it seems to be getting better.

Since she loves being belly up, she often rolls off the bed or sofa.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Yah, she'll out grow most of it, though Apollo still steps on people if they're in his way!

Since she loves being belly up, she often rolls off the bed or sofa.

:lolbangtable:
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Halloween night discovery:

Well, at this point in Tessa's life, I have realized/Tessa has proven: that she *WILL NOT* give a warning bark.

Tessa will move with WARP SPEED & complete STEALTH & her decisions are instant, or maybe the situation left no time, I do not know.

Weather was horrid for Halloween evening trick-or-treaters-due to very high winds & rain.
Tessa & I went outside, neither of us minding the rain, & gave out candy to the few groups of kids that were out, & all was perfectly well, no issues with the kids, but then she knows & LOVES the kids. She was an absolute angel, even got belly rubs.

Maybe 9:30pm, once trick or treating was done & we were dry & the rain stopped, we headed out for our night walk.
We went to the unofficial doggie park/football field. There is enough light at night that you can see somewhat, & I take a headlamp just in case.

Everything was normal, so I let her off leash so she could stretch her legs & get some good runs in before bed time.
We were alone.
The field is fenced, but there are no gates on either end.

The field is surrounded by trails leading down a mountain, & we do not do those at night, & do not do them alone anymore.

So everything is business as usual, we were on the far end of the field, but close to the middle, where it is further away from the entrance proper, which is closer to the street & houses.
This way I can see if someone is coming down with a pooch at night & leash her. This part of the field is much darker, but I can still see in the field, just can't see what is surrounding on that side or down into the trails, but have good view of the entrance proper.
The other entrance is rarely used, goes down onto the mountain trails.

Tessa was taking a rest as usual after a few runs, was completely relaxed. I was standing right there with her.
All of a sudden, she took off like a bat out of hell where there is no gate, on the dark side, & went down onto the trails.

I have NEVER seen her move that fast ever.
Honestly, I did not think her capable of that kind of speed!

She was completely silent & nothing was going to stop her.

I ran after her & stopped at the end of the field fence calling her & trying to listen for something to determine which direction she went.
All I did hear was some crashing of branches & leaves, getting father away, then silence. I was completely panicked, & I kept calling her.

I was worried she took off after a deer, or a rabbit, & didn't know which way to go, then I hear some crashing/crunching getting closer & I see something white but cannot tell in the darkness even with my headlamp. Tessa comes bounding out of the trails, with a big white bag in her mouth like a trophy.
I immediately leashed her & moved to the light, running, because I did not know what else to do except to get out of the darkness ASAP & make sure Tessa was OK.
And I was worried about the bag--in my mind, I'm thinking it's candy--cuz it's Halloween night, & worried she got some teenagers bag of candy or something.

She dropped the bag on command--did not even attempt to hold it like she does with her normal 'trophies' which I struggle to get her to drop....
I picked up the bag by it's handle to look inside & UGH--it smelled/wreaked/looked like human shit & something dead. Note: definitely not dog poo.
She stood obediently looking from the bag to me & wanted no parts of the bag once she dropped it.
I decided we needed to high-tail it outta the field & back to the main street.

Once up top & over looking where she made her bee-line, she stood proud & held her nose in the air, looked back down to where the bag was in the field & it looked back to me--like "see there's proof"

I think she went after a bum or vagrant or junkie, they set up tiny camps on the hillsides of the mountain & the weather this night was horrid.

Had she *NOT* come back with that bag, I WOULD have thought deer or rabbit.
When she takes a trophy, she ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS wants to keep it, regardless of how nasty it might be...
Wild animal poo is quite a delicacy unfortunately.
She dropped this bag & wanted no parts of it. It was obvious she brought it back only as "proof" of something.

When there is deer or rabbit, she *ALWAYS* does a "wait & see" , there was no wait & see, there was just pure action, & faster than I could have reacted to leash her, I didn't even get an ear perk or her whiffing the wind to even know to react, it believe it was all done on scent.

I checked her out good, no marks on her, looked at her mouth & snout well to see if there was blood or anything--none, so I assume no biting.

Next 2 nights at the field-the bag is still there-she has looked at it but doesn't want any part of it, though I have since pried many other nasty trophies from her mouth--no walk is complete without me having to pry something out of her mouth LOL.

I'll never know what was really there, though there is the bag. I'm told bums/homeless often poop in bags in an effort to keep their site clean especially if they are setting up for longer than a night, which kind of makes sense.

Now with this incident, I'm going to have to assume that there will NOT be any warning bark or posturing of ANY kind if she decides action is needed, which makes things a LOT more difficult. A "WOOF!" or posturing or even a rumble or growl give me time to react.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Most TMs only give a split second warning. Its a posture thing, but you only have that split second to recognize it and react. If you're LUCKY they growl too. Its usually a split second of posture, and god forbid you're looking in the wrong direction or mistake it for something else cause that was your only chance to grab a handfull of ruff.

Good girl Tessa for coming back and dropping her trophy!
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

I wish there was a video showing the posturing.

She postures constantly, it's her "freeze" thing--or at least what appears to be posturing to me--but she can go from a guardy looking posture to belly flop & loving when she recognizes the person, in a split second--I'm so so so confused.

I thought I was done worrying about her trying to taste my cat. I wake up & they are sleeping on the same side of the bed, sometimes touching, & Tessa is belly up LOL-- but she postures him too. I've been trying to break the habit--she'll be 10 months this week. I've also tried to curb her mouthyness & she still mouths too much. She is affectionate in the mouthyness, but I worry about it with others so was trying to break her of it.

She is SOOOOOOO damn stubborn. So so so stubborn. UGH!!!

Her new thing is to paw at me. I ***NEVER**** taught her to give paw--I decided not to on purpose. The damn cat taught her to paw at the door...And some effin rocket scientist woman who I told I purposefully did not teach Tessa "give paw" was so pushy & kept insisting & I was trying to leave & not be rude, but there were kids there... kept taking up her paw & sawing give paw & good girl & it only lasted a few minutes, but damn if she doesn't paw for EVERYTHING NOW.
Now her paws aren't the biggest I've had, but they're still BIG & they hurt.
Now if I tell her NO! & remove her paw, she just does it with the other one.

On a cuter note, her other 'new' thing is to nuzzle me --like a hug & lick my ears. Yeah, I'm a sucker for it. She's only drooly if she's just drank water.

Tessa had gotten less "stoic" especially on walks, she looks forward to seeing a few pooches a newfie mix & the great pyr & malamute--the gr pyr she likes hasn't given in on his stoicism yet--not with her & not with me LOL--though a couple of times I noticed I get a slight recognition from him now, Tessa is all about him, & he just mostly ignores her. They've not played yet, don't know if they ever will.

Yes, she was a good girl for the Halloween episode-I'm just thankful nothing else occurred.

Off for our night walk -hopefully it'll be all clear :)
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Hah, I'll try, but its not exactly easy to catch.

IN GENERAL, its exactly what you're talking about for her posturing otherwise. BUT, depending on the individual dog, and the individual situation it may look completely different.

And I hate people who try to teach my dogs soemthing like that. We very deliberetly taught Apollo that he would NOT get ANYTHING if he pawed. So I can totally understand! I'd tell her "NO!" and move away and ignore her till she's sitting/down politely.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Kryten picked up Shake in less than 24 hrs of being home. He watched Jiggers get a treat for it and decided he could do that. He was really gentle about it until 1 month post surgery. I started to massage his upper leg/elbow with a handheld device and apparently it feels REALLY good. He started to demand massages by putting his paw in your lap and when that didn't work he would go higher. Unfortunately I was so happy that it was helping him use the leg that I gave in most times (as did everybody else) so now I have to break the habit. 4" paw straight to the face is not fun. I have told people that have asked about tricks to teach a large dog to be careful of that one as it can backfire on you.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Ruth--what do I do when she is mostly always sitting politely? That's what she does lol--sits politely then she paws.
NO! is that dirty work that encorporates 75% of my language now.

I am so tired of being a bitch!
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Get frustrated? Lol. Been there! Reinforce sitting politely, tell her no and ignore when she paws, and cross your fingers that pawing is less fun than rewards!
 

Mooshi's Mummy

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Most TMs only give a split second warning. Its a posture thing, but you only have that split second to recognize it and react. If you're LUCKY they growl too. Its usually a split second of posture, and god forbid you're looking in the wrong direction or mistake it for something else cause that was your only chance to grab a handfull of ruff.

Good girl Tessa for coming back and dropping her trophy!
Yep!! You got all of 2 seconds if you are lucky with these guys. The freeze (posture) and GO!!! Hardly ever a warning bark or growl....I guess they figure why give the game away.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Last night on our night walk, I decided to spend a little more time observing her movements at & around the field.
It is on a mountain plateau overlooking the city, & there is actually a LOT of noise coming from the city below-barges on the river, trains, sirens from police cars, traffic etc., then you have the wind, the dry leaves etc...but she can still hear the tiniest things in the brush & woods, stuff that's too drowned out for me to hear.

She was doing some guardy looking postures, so I decided to let her do it & watch, straining to hear what she did, which most times I did not...
Then she wanted to lay down at the peak overlooking everything & watch, so I just observed--til I got too cold...
I did get to see something I had not noticed before, & I am not sure she does this in the daylight ???---Because I'd not seen this before--
When she does hear something & her ears perk & head moves on that direction, she does her usual thing like when we are watching critters, she closes her mouth & gets so silent-but I saw her nose moving like a rabbit-I had never seen her nose move like that before--I've seen her do the whiffing the air thing & enlarged nostrils--this was different. My girl's got 'rabbit nose'.

Then a mini van pulled up to observe the view, & Tessa got up & did her posturing for a minute, & all was guardy looking, and the young lady must've been watching her, & gets out & gives a "Ohhh such a beautiful baby-hey puppy" & gushes over her, & Tessa of course goes to pieces & wants pets...& flops down right in the street.

If I get burgled, & that person does an "oohh puppy" there is no chance for me.
 

Mooshi's Mummy

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

hahahaha! you have a softer tempered TM by the sounds of it...consider yourself lucky, you could have Mooshi! LOL.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

I do think she is soft, but like I said previously, I have reinforced & rewarded soft & submissive behaviors.

One of the larger issues that I was exploring elsewhere, & lalead me here was because even @ 11 wks she was doing these 'postures' that DO look VERY guardy.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

got cut off & couldn't edit--site is acting whacky---
anyway:

One of the larger issues that I was exploring elsewhere, & landed me here was because even @ 11 wks she was doing these 'postures' constantly that DO look VERY guardy.
& her extremely intense 'wait & see'-I still am trying to figure out is it is a guardy thing--she is so sweet & is submissive, but also, I think a LOT of that is because ever since TM came up, I have reinforced ever soft thing about her, never played rough etc etc...I've not reinforced anything guardy, because I didn't want it to get out of control, since TM recall & issues with independent decision making etc.

I'm trying to figure out some type of balance--& I have no idea how to get it, or get close to it from a TM. I don't want an aggressive pooch that guards too much & I can't call them off, but also, I don't necessarily want a pooch that belly flops for every person that approaches.

I know HOW to get this balance with a rottie/shepherd--but no idea how with Tessa, & I know I can't train her like I would a rottie...my fear is that could create too much guardiness.

LOL--I was flamed on another site for saying "training Tessa like a rottie" back when I thought she was rottie--but you can train a rottie/shepherd easily to be called off & to posture on command etc-this is why they are used in law enforcement & military & schultzhund (sp?)

I'm wanting some "presence", controllable presence--is that possible with a TM? Have I skrewed everything up by reinforcing all of her submissive stuff?
I do want a pooch who can woof & make a potential intruder have a 2nd thought...

Tessa seems to give off 2 vibes to me--she looks guardy in those postures, but it can flip to belly up & gimmee lovins in a split second.

Since she never barks or growls when posturing--maybe it is not guardy-maybe that's just her posture, I don't know how to read anything with her.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

In situations where you think her guardy is appropriate tell her she's done good ("good girl" or the phrase you prefer).

But DO keep in mind that she starts paying attention to those instincts she's not going to stop. And it'll be worth it to you to take a second look if she DOES not relax with someone.

Apollo tends to respond "well" to that "oh big fluffy puppy!!" from people. He won't roll over, but he'll often respond in a positive manner. When he DOESN'T, even if he's not acting guardy as such, I pay attention.
 

Catia

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Quote:
"But DO keep in mind that she starts paying attention to those instincts she's not going to stop"
Unquote

This ^^^ is precisely why I have not reinforced anything even remotely guardy-ish.
I've kept it in mind since day 1 of my beginning to research TM's.
I do realize she's really just a baby still.

Is there a way to strike a balance with a TM? Or is it full on full off?

Also, I've never seen Tessa get her hackles/fur raised-do TM's not do this?
 

Mooshi's Mummy

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

IMO with a TM its either on or its off...and as for calling off I haven't been able to do this with Mooshi during the times when she has been full on. There have been a few occasions where Moo has taken a MASSIVE dislike to someone, a stranger, and she let them know it. Snarling, barking, lunging etc and no amount of 'its ok' or 'no' or 'enough' from me was going to get her to calm down until the perceived threat was passed, all I could do was hang on to her 'oh shit handle' aka collar and hope that the threat (in her eyes) soon moved on. One I had to physically drag Moo away as the idiot wouldn't take the hint and walk away, he was determined to stand there and talk to my husband while Mooshi was going insane and trying everything in her power to get to this guy. So yeah, IMO, its either on or its off, there is no inbetween. As for raised hackles....nope I have never once seen Mooshi raise her hackles, and she doesn't give a little warning growl either. She starts to growl, then growl louder and then its roaring and lunging. Im not trying to make her sound scary or like a lunatic, she has done this less than half a dozen times but each time she was very serious in her duties. As for reinforcing anything guardy-ish I have never done it either, you don't have to with this breed, its in their nature, it doesn't need to be reinforced, I don't think it can be reinforced as much as it can be trained out of them either. Its there, kind of like another limb, it is what it is. As Ruth says you can reward her for behaviours you do like and want to encourage but IMO you cant train away the TM instinct, all you can do is be on guard yourself and know what you have got.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

I have a video showing Apollo with raised hackles, BUT he was behind the window. If the window hadn't been in the way I'm pretty sure Evil Kitty would have been dead before the hackles got truely raised.

And yah, you don't need to reinforce, though doing so makes it stronger. Its possible that her Golden half has created a soft enough dog that she won't. She's certinally got better recall than I,d have expected!
 

Mooshi's Mummy

Well-Known Member
Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

I want to see the vid Ruth...Ive not seen Moo raise her hackles...Im jealous. LOL