Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

[Catia]

Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

So, on the TM aspect, I was very worried Tessa might become too aggressive/guardy or hard to handle.
I am a huge socializer anyway, so I upped the socilaization to a daily thing.

Tessa is a butter soft & floppy, noodley girl. If I could pick her up, she's like a cat, never stiffens etc.

Not knowing how she'd be, the only things I have focused on are the very basics, socialization took over.

Now I'm worried I might have a pooch who won't guard/watch or sound off at all.

I've not reinforced the things I would have done if she were a rottie, because I didn't want to worry about aggression I couldn't handle with an independent thinking breed that has bad recall & can't be commanded to stop on command.

Tessa is coming up on 7 months. Now I am seeing *PUPPY BEHAVIOR*.
She plays with some toys, not really dog toys, but things she likes, she seeks them & me out, so that aspect is changing.

I'm wondering what I can do to get a little guardiness...Don't want to bite off more than I can chew... I'm kind of lost.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

For a TM, if she's going to guard she'll guard. For any of the LGDs really. You can't socialize it out. So either she didn't get the guardian genes, or she's not found something she feels the need to guard against (or we're all wrong about what she is, but I still don't see it lol). Socialization for these dogs doesn't train it out, it just shows the dog whats normal so they know they don't have to react to that.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

I do vaugely recall you saying saying something about a "look" or "watch" command for her to watch people, if you're using that, continue to do so.

 

[kbuchanan66]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Who knows maybe she is an "actual" threat reactor. Like if someone were to push you over or start yelling in your face would she react? How was her behavior when that guy at the dog park was being belligerent to you?

There is a test that people do before Schutzhund or a personal protection course that gauges a dogs reaction and protection ability. I don't think they test until the dog is fully adult and set into their natural temperament. I am not suggesting you do it I am just letting you know about it.

 

[Catia]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

I've read some stuff about schutzhund--but these are not independent breeds in schutzhund, so not really comparing apples to apples know what i mean?
LGD's, from what I've read have low prey drive & usually low reactivity--they don't react until they must.

I've not done a 'look' or 'watch' command type of thing, unless we're crouched down watching deer or something similar, & I ask her to sit & watch, but i don't think that counts for what you're talking about.

Tessa still does her freeze thing, she just stops & sits or stands proud like, I do not know what that is about.
It looks guardy to other people. I have no idea what it is.

Tonight she did her thing along a dark patch of road where a trail comes up to & it's a wooded hillside with a break in the fence. We walk this street 10 times per week at least.
I usually do not walk along that particular side at night, but it was not completely dark.
Tonight she wanted no parts of it--she had her nose in the air but wouldn't move or go farther, & wanted to cross the street. I stood there for a few min trying to listen or smell or see if I could figure out what was up-I didn't smell or hear anything in the woods--but whatever it was-she refused to move forward & didn't want me to either. Has not happened before, so I decided to trust her. As soon as I motioned to cross the street, she returned to her normal self immediately.

Tessa is *quiet*, I have yet to see her bark at another dog. Dogs can be freaking out on all sides of the street barking all around her & she just doesn't. She might pull if it's a pooch she likes.
She also hasn't barked at any people except for once a couple of months ago from my front porch.

Unless she is talking to her toys--she's so quiet in the house-she's cat-like-I've caught her tip-toeing--not kidding-when she's trying to get to something she shouldn't have. I have never seen a pooch tip toe before!

if she's inside she's sleeping by sliding glass door looking out--if I have her outside & I'm not there, she's looking in...
She will bark-incessantly to get back inside...doesn't bark to be let out-that only sort of happened once.

Her favorite thing, aside from swimming, is to watch groups of children play-she thinks she should be allowed to park her butt at the playground.

She is my mystery girl. I still have no clue what she's thinking.

 

[Kelly]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

she sounds really cool.

as far as over socializing, i wouldnt worry about that. its good for to be exposed to all manner of people, so shs not spooked by a man with a hat, or beard, or person of a different race thn she is normally exposed to. hope youre really enjoying her.

 

[looby73]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Tessa still does her freeze thing, she just stops & sits or stands proud like, I do not know what that is about.
It looks guardy to other people. I have no idea what it is.

Tessa is *quiet*, I have yet to see her bark at another dog. Dogs can be freaking out on all sides of the street barking all around her & she just doesn't. She might pull if it's a pooch she likes.
She also hasn't barked at any people except for once a couple of months ago from my front porch.

I've caught her tip-toeing--not kidding-when she's trying to get to something she shouldn't have. I have never seen a pooch tip toe before!

When Zeus (18 months) is deciding whether something is worth barking at he goes still and 'watches'. Hades (6 months) just barks at everything at the moment. He's still to learn what's worth it or not (Zeus went through the same stage too).

Tip toeing - Hades does that when he's trying to 'creep up' on Zeus ready to pounce. Which is quite ridiculous to watch a 6 stone puppy think he's being stealthy!

Just my opinion but it sounds like Tessa is guardy but in a more watchful way and assessing whether the situation warrants a more assertive type of guarding.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

i've read some stuff about schutzhund--but these are not independent breeds in schutzhund, so not really comparing apples to apples know what i mean?
Lgd's, from what i've read have low prey drive & usually low reactivity--they don't react until they must.

I've not done a 'look' or 'watch' command type of thing, unless we're crouched down watching deer or something similar, & i ask her to sit & watch, but i don't think that counts for what you're talking about.

Tessa still does her freeze thing, she just stops & sits or stands proud like, i do not know what that is about.
It looks guardy to other people. I have no idea what it is. The freeze this is normal with a tm - she is assessing the situation. Mooshi does this all the time. When the freeze happens around another dog be warned, she could pounce and not it a good way. These guys body language is hard to read at the best of times.

Tonight she did her thing along a dark patch of road where a trail comes up to & it's a wooded hillside with a break in the fence. We walk this street 10 times per week at least.
I usually do not walk along that particular side at night, but it was not completely dark.
Tonight she wanted no parts of it--she had her nose in the air but wouldn't move or go farther, & wanted to cross the street. I stood there for a few min trying to listen or smell or see if i could figure out what was up-i didn't smell or hear anything in the woods--but whatever it was-she refused to move forward & didn't want me to either. Has not happened before, so i decided to trust her. As soon as i motioned to cross the street, she returned to her normal self immediately. She knew something was out of place, glad you went with your instinct and trusted her.

Tessa is *quiet*, i have yet to see her bark at another dog. Dogs can be freaking out on all sides of the street barking all around her & she just doesn't. She might pull if it's a pooch she likes. Consider yourself lucky!
She also hasn't barked at any people except for once a couple of months ago from my front porch.

Unless she is talking to her toys--she's so quiet in the house-she's cat-like-i've caught her tip-toeing--not kidding-when she's trying to get to something she shouldn't have. I have never seen a pooch tip toe before! Hahaha - these guys are super clever and can be cat like quiet, mooshi is the same. I'll turn around sometimes and think 'how the hell did you get there? I didnt even hear her coming'

if she's inside she's sleeping by sliding glass door looking out--if i have her outside & i'm not there, she's looking in...
She will bark-incessantly to get back inside...doesn't bark to be let out-that only sort of happened once. Oh yeah, moo too. She knocks at the door to go out and shouts at the top of her voice to come back in again. God forbid she should miss something interesting going on inside!

Her favorite thing, aside from swimming, is to watch groups of children play-she thinks she should be allowed to park her butt at the playground.

She is my mystery girl. I still have no clue what she's thinking.

and you probably never will. I have found its best to chill and let it roll rather than think about it too mcuh. This is a breed like no other.

 

[Catia]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Yes, you're right, this breed is really different--I am so *relieved* Tessa is now finding some interest in toys-& sometimes she gets zoomies too, & now she does engage me more.

Her stamina is different too, a few times lately she'll get zoomies *after* we've had a long walk & are home--our walks always span an hour or more.

I also wake up often with a bone on my pillow--or under my pillow.

Tessa is making friends with a great pyr & a malamute-a young couple rescued both boys. It's slow going, & a little intimidating, last night we allowed the malamute & Tessa to sniff each other.
The malamute has this crazy bark & is huge. I love his bark!
They all seem to have the same approach style-the stand still & tall & watch.
I'm not sure how exactly to describe it--but all 3 of them do this, & I've not seen it with other pooches, it's something just slightly different in their way of observing.
I approached this couple a while back since they have those pooches, but this is their 1st time & they rescued adults, so don't have any previous experience--lol-I was hoping to tap their brains about LGD's, but no luck.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

You're lucky Tessa has in interest in toys - Mooshi has zero interest UNLESS its something new and it can be destroyed. I can count on one hand the amount of times she has gone after a ball, but she does not return it. She may, if I am lucky, run after one maybe twice in a row and then forget it. Give her a new toy that is meant for Bear however and she is more than happy to steal it from him and kill it in seconds flat! Good girl Tessa making new friends, Moo is a hate you or love you girl...and the body freeze thing is common with TM's. Their body language is hard to read at best of times, this is one of the ones to watch for because it can go very good or very bad very quickly. Tip toe - oh yeah I know that one. Mooshi can move so quiet its freaky. One second she is there, the next she isn't and you don't hear her move! I did reply to your comments above - but you have to read the bubble all over as I typed them in upper case but they came out in lower case. Grr!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Oh yah, watch that freeze, she's watching something, or looking for something she otherwise senses.

And yah, these guys don't generally do well at shutzhund or the like, there are exceptions, but in general they're to independant.

I swear Apollo is quieter on his feet than Arty. Arty, at all of 32lbs, sounds like a herd of elephants thundering through the house.....where Apollo does quiet cat feet most of the time, even when he's in a hurry!

 

[kbuchanan66]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Sorry guys I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying put her in Schutzhund..I was just saying that their is a test that they do to guage the protective instinct in a dog to see if it is worth pursuing the sport. They can tell you if it is a reactive, defensive, protective type of guarding and let you know how far you have to push before a reaction.

 

[thelady_v2010]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

When she is watching something, what seems to be guarding, you can say a word "Watch". Then she will associate the word with her action and you can begin to ask her to Watch. My dog does bark at the door. So when he did, I would say "watch". Now I can say it and he goes to the door with his big boy bark, or outside, he will do his bark at what ever I am looking at. I started it because I have creepy neighbors that were always out watching us. I didn't want him to get comfortable always seeing them and I didn't want them to get comfortable that he wouldn't "get them (he wouldn't, but they don't need to know that). So, when we are out and they are out, I can say "watch" and he will look at them and bark.

 

[Catia]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Just for the record, so it's not misunderstood-I don't believe there is such a thing as "over socializing", except for the specific instance such as you specifically want a LGD to only protect their livestock-they do need to bond with them.

I just want to convey that socilizing is where ALL of my focus has been--I might take 1 day off per week-Tessa is out everyday for hours with me--& I still don't feel it's enough experiences, because of the hours I work.

Just that socializing has been my primary focus since the whole TM thing started.

I struggle with deciding what i want to do as far as some different types of training. I know full well what I could do with a rottie/shepherd/dane--I don't want to open a can of worms I cannot control with a TM.

For example, I've read many places that TM's can be problem barkers, so i've not taught Tessa "speak"--I don't want to open a flood gate--it's things like that.
I've never had a pooch as quiet as Tessa.
My cats make more noise.
I wonder *if* she would give a warning bark.
A large part of me wants to see where & when Tessa will do her barking naturally--by her own thought process 1st. I want to see how & if she can assess situations & at what point she will react.

Tessa is low reactive, but low reactive doesn't mean she won't react, just means her threshold is higher than most pooches for tolerance before she reacts--& she is so subtle.
I do not know if she would give a warning bark 1st.

Tessa's 'freeze' thing has been there since day 1. It's a full body alert. Because I've never seen her show any aggression or even a warning, I don't really think of it as being 'guardy', but I hold her leash much tighter in my hand when she does it just in case.
Other people's reaction are what makes me think it appears guardy to others, so maybe it is a guardy thing.
When she's doing her 'freeze' stand at alert-she stands tall & somewhat puffed up & will STARE hard & not move.
She won't break her gaze & she can't be easily redirected, or moved. When she does this when we are walking down a sidewalk, she gets a wide birth, or they will cross the street.

When she did this last night before we got to the break in the fence area where a trail comes up to the road-(there are no lights there so is dark)-she wasn't going to be moved.

We've had some attacks (people on people) on the trails lately. I tend to think there had to be someone or people close by, down there even though I didn't hear & couldn't see anyone, because if it was an animal she behaves differently, or if she is anticipating an animal the body language is different.
Last week we were on the trail & she was acting really weird, & it was a struggle to get her to move at 1st. I figured it was a dead animal or something in the brush, so didn't go to check out, just wanted to avoid pulling a dead bird from her mouth...
I found out 2 days later that there was a teenager attacked & thrown over the same hillside & had been laying there for 30 hours, so was down there when we were...& that's what all Tessa's interest was about.

Her posture is different for how she watches an animal versus a person. This freeze thing is some type of posturing I think.

 

[Armistead]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

It really depends. If you socialize it well with just family to the point of too much love, they will often be even more aggressive to strangers, much like a mother protecting a cub. If you socialize it with many strangers and other animals it may lose some protective personality which may be desired in certain homes.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

You can't over socialize a TM or similer type breed. Not if you want them to be functional members of society instead of working LGDs. The only thing that socialization looses you is the risk that you'll have a dog who assumes threat where there is none....

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

^^agree^^

 

[thelady_v2010]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Catia disappeared on us.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

I've talked to her a bit, she's got some personal stresses to deal with too that have been keeping her busy.

 

[Catia]

Re: Stuck between a rock & a hard place...

Didn't disappear, just took a "leave of absence". I have some health issues that just leave me depleted & sometimes I gotta just 'drop out'. Things with Tessa are about the same, with the exception that her coat is going BERZERK & it seems there is no end in sight! Only last week did she begin to shed a few furs after I bathed her. I'll be back around more soon, & also I gotta figure out the settings for this site, seems some things have changed.