Stillwater vs millan or positive vs domance training

Discussion in 'Dogo Argentino' started by Jonnyboy, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. Jonnyboy

    Jonnyboy Member

    Hey all, been reading and watching dog training techniques. I was wondering what kind of techniques everyone's using for their dogos?

    Two styles seem to be duking it out (with some saying dominance style teaching is outdated).

    So back to the question: do you follow more of a positive training method (I.e more like Stillwater) or do you follow a dominance style method( ie ceaser millan)? Or a little of both?

    I have never owned a dogo, but have owned large powerful breeds(and smaller hunting breeds). It seems I tend to lean closer to a positive training method with them.

    Positive trainers are saying science backs them, and being dominate over your dog is actually detrimental. (Cortisone levels spike dramatically when you physically assert yourself over the dog) Which would appear to "calm down" a dog or make it submissive. But according to 'science' the dog is actually "shutting down". What's everyone's thoughts?

    Are people being too sensitive or are we being cruel to our dogs?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  2. karennj

    karennj Well-Known Member

    Oh dear....this one could get very interesting. I suggest to keep this friendly people just respond with the method they use and leave it at that. We used mostly positive but I will give my dog a firm command if needed. I try to do whatever makes sense at the moment to build our teamwork without causing negative associations for the future. I use counter conditioning/operant conditioning (with positive reinforcement), classical conditioning and desensitizing as much as possible. I do not use Compulsion training.
     
  3. babyjoemurphy

    babyjoemurphy Well-Known Member

    I have an EM and these guys are very stubborn. I fell if I was to use dominent training it might break his gentle spirit. Patience as well as being gently assertive works with Lincoln.
    We find he sometimes he has to think when asked to drop a rock or something he is not suppose to have. We give him his minute to "think it out" then he drops it. If he is having a hard time letting go we will open his mouth and take it with no attaboy
    We never really have issues thank god for anything else.
    My understanding is dogos are alot different them EM'S

    And yes karennj I see alot of feedback happening on this thread as well. Starring this thread for sure

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  4. tmricciuto

    tmricciuto Well-Known Member

    I have two girl EM's, littermates and 6 months old, and I do mostly positive reinforcement but sometimes for their safety have to take matters into my own hands. We are doing a lot of training but much more is needed. I do give them about 30 seconds to make up their mind if they will listen or not and then help them do what I asked of them. Hope that makes sense. I am working with the larger girl who now wants to jump up into my lap and is not respecting people's space and that I have to do physically, meaning physically move her off/away from me and once she is sitting I give her praise.
     
  5. TricAP

    TricAP Well-Known Member

    Positive training.
     
  6. DDSK

    DDSK Well-Known Member

    Positive training with bribes and some psychological therapy.
     
  7. babyjoemurphy

    babyjoemurphy Well-Known Member

    I love using the bribes. When Linc doesn't wanna come into the house when he is out front I have to use the "want cheese" line lol. Sometimes I think he is a 2 yr old trapped in a dogs body. I keep looking for the zipper to free the kid

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  8. Smokeycat

    Smokeycat Well-Known Member

    I used completely positive until they knew the rules at which point I added corrections when they choose to disobey. My non-mastiff in particular needs to know that they will be repercussions for misbehaving.
     
  9. DennasMom

    DennasMom Well-Known Member

    I use what works and what I enjoy using - because if it's fun, you'll do more of it and everyone will get more out of it.

    Dominance methods may work (or they may backfire, depending on the dog)... but they're not very fun. They are stressful - I think for both human and canine. Humans who enjoy dominating dogs probably shouldn't own them (IMO).

    My methods have evolved over the years. With Denna, we opted for much more all-positive methods.
    I'd say she's been 95+% positive/clicker trained, and it's worked GREAT. That other 5% has been to let her know that "no" means "no"...
    We used LOTS of bribes early on, and she still gets treats "just because". It makes me happy to see her happy... and treats make her happy. :)

    ...like babyjoemurphy... I've resorted to shaking the treat jar to get the response I want, too... hey, if it works, use it!

    Stilwell is still a bit too extreme for my tastes. It's nice, but not always an efficient means to the desired end.
    All Positive training is a great way to teach NEW stuff, but I don't think it works as well to STOP bad stuff.

    One trainer I follow (AmazingDogTrainingMan) points out that there are a LOT of dogs in shelters due to owners being told it's cruel to tell your dog NO and reinforce it in ways they understand.
    Even a good friend of mine is posting on FB about how cruel prong collars are... yet many here have used them with great results (and no doggie hurt feelings, either)... helping the dogs to remain in the homes that love them.

    Cesar also has his problems... especially when he (or his producer) decided they needed more drama on the show and it got stupid (IMO).
     
  10. karennj

    karennj Well-Known Member

    I agree stillwater is a joke. I would love to see her work with an aggressive mastiff! It's really not fair to use her as an example of "positive" training. If you have a puppy, sure, but I think that's about all she is good for.

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  11. GaMei

    GaMei Well-Known Member

    I have a Dogo and the training method i use is trust which means i have to earn the respect of my Dogo for him to obey which took a while while he transitioned out of puberty lol. Whatever rules are established he obey but will also break them from time to time to spot check if those rules still stand. NEVER!! EVER!! have i psychically punished my dog since Dogos do not respond well to aggression. They are a breed that typically responds to one owner only and for the most part he obeys me pretty well. I have been training him for over a year now, on Saturdays i take him to free classes the Kennel Club offers for free, he now does the basics (Sit, Lay Down, Stay on both positions Sitting and laying down, come, etc.) he also does obstacle training (tunnel, jumping through a tire, etc.)

    I do not use treats or toys during training which goes back to my point about the method which is trust, i have to run with him, skate with him and really show him that i am the Alpha and i can take care of him. At that point he will allow me to guide him, i hope that helps.
     
  12. Oscar'sMom

    Oscar'sMom Well-Known Member

    We use positive training here :)
     
  13. Th0r

    Th0r Well-Known Member

    Who's Stillwater? Do you guys mean Stilwell?

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  14. fila4me

    fila4me Well-Known Member

    I use whatever method works for my dog. Some positive and some "dominant". Dogos are no joke and some become assholes around a year and a half. Knowing your dog plays a huge patt. My dogs are never hit or any ting like that , but I have breeds that can kill a person just for stepping in their invisible circle of what they consider theirs. I love my dogs and don't want to jeopardize their livelyhood because some idiot got to close and I can't control my dog. Hope that comes across the way I meant it.
    My dogs know I am serious when I tell them to do something. They know if they don't their are consequences . Any who encounter me with my 2 Filas will thank god I don't pussy foot around.
    Using my training I could safely walk my 2 Filas, 3 Dogos, 2 Eng. Springers and Pit Bull anywhere safely and controlled. Sometimes even laughing at the person passing me getting dragged by their Lab
     
  15. karennj

    karennj Well-Known Member

    Yes Victoria Stilwell is who I was referring to. Is she even a real trainer or just an actor pretending to be a trainer?
     
  16. Th0r

    Th0r Well-Known Member

    Yeah that dumbass lives in fairytale land!
    Dogs need to know who's in charge like children do. None of this we are equal and hopefully you respect me enough to do what I ask of you nonsense!

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  17. Jonnyboy

    Jonnyboy Member

    Yes, totally meant stilwell. My other thought was "zak George vs millian", but it would appear a lot of people find him too silly/outlandish?

    Now for you guys/gals saying that with your own dog, an alpha role is a must for attaining safe/good behaviour - and also for controlling an escalating situation.
    ----------> how do you personally go about establishing the alpha role? (Always eating before the dog?, first thru doorways? etc...) or tough love? Do you start with prong/shock or gentle leads? Or is that just for treating a specific behaviour problem?

    And thank you everybody! Love that everyone's sharing methods/opinions, (albeit different) everyone's being open, honest and respectful. Makes for a good informative read. Lots of experience being shared.
     
  18. Th0r

    Th0r Well-Known Member

    NILF, consistency, being firm, establishing boundaries, and etc.

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  19. karennj

    karennj Well-Known Member

    I agree. Even though I use more positive methods for training I 100% believe you need to be firm when needed, establish rules, make them work for things (especially mastiffs), have clear and consistent boundaries, etc. I think the whole eating before the dog, walking out the door before them, not letting them on the prime locations (bed) is a joke. That is all based on the assumption that the dog thinks your a dog and believe me, he doesn't. It is like trying to get a horse to do what you want by back kicking it. It would leave the animal totally confused. I think some people get caught up on one side. They are either too positive or too dominating. You have to fall somewhere in the middle or the dog is not getting a well rounded life. Its like kids really. If you are too easy going you end up with a brat. If your too overbearing you end up with a rebel. The "top dogs" get that spot naturally. It is the way they carry themselves and behave, they usually have a very even temperament.
     
  20. karennj

    karennj Well-Known Member

    And let me clarify something because the post won't let me edit (grrrr), Making a dog wait at the door is important for impulse control training. I don't believe it shows you as the alpha, it teaches the dog it needs to be respectful of thresholds.
     

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