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Resource Guarding - Help!

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
So I'm having a troubling problem. Hoping you all can help.

Ivy has had problems with resource guarding since very, very young ... the first week we had her home, she went "mad dog" on me over a pile of regurgitated food. Since then the behavior has occurred once every few weeks or so - over chew toys, dead squirrel, dead rabbit, plastic bottle that she was ripping to shreds, and most recently over a kitchen doormat that she was chewing and her outside bed (more details on this coming, don't want to describe every incident to death but just give the big picture).

Ivy's breeder had warned me that her mother had serious resource guarding issues with food at about 6 months of age. This developed into an issue where she would guard the area in the kitchen where she was fed and not allow anyone to walk by. They ended up sending her to a boarding trainer who kept her 2 weeks and worked with her, then worked with her on a daily "outpatient" basis for another week. Since then I think her mother's problems have not recurred.

Since we knew this to be a problem with some TMs, and since we knew the family history, we've kept an eye on it from the beginning. We have almost exclusively hand-fed her (all members of the family). We consistently drop treats when we walk by as she is chewing on a chew toy and we play "trade" where we take away the chew toy and give her a treat, then give it back. We don't allow her to keep toys around in the kitchen except for a few stuffed toys that stay in her crate. When we give her toys to play with (like a tug of war toy) we take them and put them away after we are done playing. We generally practice things like "sit and wait" at every door, and we enter/exit first, and we don't step over her when she's lying in the way - we move her. She has very few privileges in the house - never on the furniture, and she is only allowed in the kitchen when we are not directly supervising - she does not have the run of the house. Kitchen with open crate at night when sleeping, and crated or in her fenced yard when we are not at home. In the evenings she is in the living room with us but leashed and downed on her settle mat - we are also having problems with her getting along with our older dog but that is a separate issue, so both dogs are leashed when they are in the same room together (we're working with a trainer on our older dog's behavior).

Today, I was out in her fenced yard with her, picking up old chew toys and generally cleaning up. I noticed a piece of black canvas and went to see if it had come off her bed, which she has been chewing on (canvas bed on a metal frame). As soon as I approached the bed and started to touch it, she came at me growling. I grabbed her collar and told her NO, and told her to sit (which she did). Then I put her in a down (she did not want to lie down so I tugged her collar but once I did that she went easily into a down and stayed there). I*m not sure if this is the right or wrong thing to do, but I then went and picked up a new treat I had just brought out for her (plastic bottle with small treats inside to keep her busy) because I didn*t want her to be rewarded for this behavior. She tried to follow me and I turned around and told her NO again, and she went into a down and stayed there. I went over and sat on her bed and she laid there with head on paws looking at me but did not react. Not sure if I should have done that. I was not trying to provoke her, but rather remind her who the boss is in the household (not her) and that if I want to touch her bed, she needs to allow it.

So, obviously this is going to be a problem with Ivy. We need to nip it in the bud and I am not sure I am handling things correctly. It*s very upsetting because I absolutely love this dog, but we must get this behavior under control. My kids are able to handle her now (and we always keep the martingale collar on so that we can grab it and subdue her) but she is getting very big very fast, and I'm not sure that she will always be able to be handled by my youngest.

Any help VERY much appreciated. Thanks. :)
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
I should mention that what's really bothering me is not so much that she is resource guarding - because I can deal with that issue - but more that WHAT she guards is (to me) totally unpredictable. I wasn't super surprised when she went ballistic the times I had to retrieve dead animals from her mouth, or over a chew toy - the kitchen mat was a huge surprise and I was shocked this morning when she came after me when I touched her bed. I'm sure there is some patten (things she likes to chew on, maybe?) but it's tough to predict and so it's alarming when it happens.
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
And forgot to mention we also are huge on NILF - both dogs - 24/7. We do also work daily on basic obedience though when Ivy had the e-collar for 2 weeks most of that went out the window (but still practiced NILF for feeding, entering/exit the house, etc.)
 

Doggyhelpplease

Well-Known Member
I was going to offer tips but I thought you were going to speak about food guarding and it seems you are right the big issue for you is your dog seems to be unpredictable guarding. She seems to live a pretty strict structure from what you describe. Somehow you need to teach her everything in the house is yours and you let her use it. Can you take away all her chews and stuff and only take it out and give it to her when you say its time for her to play, sleep etc. Not forever cause that is a crazy way to live but for a few weeks till she gets that you own everything?

My pup when young had a little food guarding issue but not to serious and it was worked out through trading and just hand feeding etc. Sorry can't be more help and wish you luck.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Hrm

Ok, just to clarify, for most things, when you take them away from her, do you always "trade"? Ie: you take away the dead thing and give her a treat or other at least sorta high value item?

I'm thinking you may need to take the NILF to a higher level. EVERYTHING is in your control till you give it to her, and again when you take it away. That includes the dog bed.
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
Hi Ruth, when we are able to, we trade. She had a sock once and had almost swallowed it, so that was an example when we could not trade. The day she got the dead squirrel, similarly, she was gulping it and I could not trade. Yes, I can definitely take things away. The toys in her fenced area, for example, and the bed.

Wondering if I am handling this correctly when it happens. Obviously, I have to subdue her. Any suggestions on what to do after that?




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broccolini

Well-Known Member
Here is a summary of a good plan for dealing with this. Athena had some resource guarding with food but only with other animals. It sounds like you've already done a lot of foundation work.

First, teach her 'drop it' in a non-adversarial way. If you've already used 'drop it', pick another phrase. Start by removing anything you know she will guard. Get her used to the fact that 'drop it' means that something good is coming from you. Just walk by and say 'drop it' and toss her a treat. When she understands that part, give her something low-value to have. Do the 'drop it' and toss a treat and just keep walking by.

Start trading her for treats. You should be able to say 'drop it' and toss her a treat and hopefully, she will take the treat. While she's doing that, you take the object. When she's done with the treat, give the object back to her.

Gradually work up to more high-value items. You might have to toss a lot of really good treats at her so you have time to get whatever she has. Always give the item back to her.

Eventually, (hopefully :) ) she will start dropping things on command. You will probably always have to do some management with her and refresh the 'drop it' command.

Sometimes we create the guarding issue. The dog will have something and we panic and try to get it from them. Then they assume that whatever they have is really awesome and needs to be guarded. It doesn't sound like you are doing that. Also, punishment tends to make them react quicker. But it doesn't sound like you're doing that either.

Good luck. Object guarding can be tricky to deal with because you never really know what they will decide to guard.
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
Thanks broc. Our puppy class trainer suggested the "drop it" and we did that with regularity - but when Ivy had the e-collar she could not reach any treats that we would drop - so again, she backslid quite a bit. We are still working on it.

As a habit, whenever she has a high-value item (like a bully stick), I make a point of walking by and dropping treats a few times. She'll stop chewing on the bully, pick up the treats, go back to the bully. Eventually after a few "drive-bys", I'll pick up the bully as she's reaching for the treats I've dropped. Then after she's eaten the treats, give the bully stick back immediately with lots of praise and happy talk. This has worked well and so I really haven't had any issues with treat or chew toy type things since I started doing it.

I understand what you are saying about when we panic and want to get something. This definitely happened when she grabbed my son's sock. My husband went to get it and she made it a game. Then when she realized he was about to take it back, she tried to eat it. At that point (because she is a gulper) he had to grab her and pull the sock out of her mouth. He got bitten in the process but not hard, though she did draw blood. When she had the dead animals, similarly, she tried to gulp them down immediately. Both times I got behind her with her between my legs, grabbed the martingale collar and pulled her head up so that I could yank the dead animal out of her mouth. Literally, the squirrel was halfway down her throat. Grossest thing I've ever done. Of course, then I had to keep her under control with the collar tight so that I could dispose of the animal because she was still trying to get it back after I'd gotten it out of her mouth. Maybe her eating a dead squirrel or rabbit would not have been a big deal, but I didn't want to take a chance.

Today was so surprising to me though, because all I did was go over to her bed to look at when she'd been chewing it. I had no intention of taking it away (of course I realize she could not know that) and I had just given her a very yummy treat (empty yogurt drink bottle with more treats stuffed inside - she loves the yogurt and the treats and she loves chewing on the bottle afterwards - this is one of her absolute favorite items and I was surprised she dropped it to come after me).

Of course, I took her treat away after she acted up. But I am not sure if dogs actually get the concept of consequences for their actions ... so this is partly why I posted. I do appreciate all the tips for preventing issues and I am working on this daily. But I'm not sure if I am handling things right when she has an "unexpected" episode.
 

broccolini

Well-Known Member
Of course, I took her treat away after she acted up. But I am not sure if dogs actually get the concept of consequences for their actions ... so this is partly why I posted. I do appreciate all the tips for preventing issues and I am working on this daily. But I'm not sure if I am handling things right when she has an "unexpected" episode.

I don't think they get the 'consequence' thing unless it's an immediate one. Punishment will likely make this sort of thing worse too. Guarding things make sense to dogs and if they are already in a defensive mode punishment might make them more aggressive.

I would think that when you have an unexpected thing happen, the best course is to no let it be a huge issue. Yes, you had to take the sock. So after something like that, just pretend that nothing exciting happened, toss her some treats when you have a chance and move on.

When we had the behaviorist out for Athena, she said that sometimes, things happen and all you can do is get out of the situation as quickly and without as much drama as possible. Don't let one or two incidences define your progress.

It really sounds like you are doing all the right things. Maybe it will just take a lot more time and repetition. A strong foundation of 'leave it' and 'drop it' along with management is the best path I think.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
The ecollar might be the real cause of the current problem, if you were seeing progress before. Not much you can do about that except go back to foundation work and being strict. Make sure you are keeping her as busy as possible, and when possible encourage and redirect guarding to appropriate things (like telling her she's a good girl for alerting you to someone coming up the drive).
 

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
Thank you for starting this post elastigirl.
Our previous Mastiff RIP resource gaurded. We adopted him at 3 and I think he was allowed to do it. We tried and tried to stop the behaviour with no success. My biggest fear is our new guy will resource gaurd because lets face it these guys are big with big mouths and teeth.
I have been trying to teach Linc drop it. He is not very good at it lol
With this post I now will start throwing treats at him and starting at square one

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DennasMom

Well-Known Member
The only thing I'll add... kinda follows on what Broccolini was talking about - don't make it a big dramatic event to take something... try and stay calm and make it a matter-of-fact event.

As soon as you have what you want - change to happy baby-talk & praise - get her out of the defense-mode and into happy-pack-follow-mom mode.

I think you might be making each 'consequence' too much, and that's what she's remembering, instead of having a "giving stuff to mom results in a happy party" memory, she has a "mom always takes my stuff and gets mad and unhappy" memory.

You want her to know that 'her' stuff is yours, but you also want to let her know that sharing 'her' stuff with you gets her love and praise.

In addition to the other suggestions above, I'd also maybe try some clicker/marker training... work on 'leave-it' and 'drop' and 'find-it'

"find-it" for us means "I just dropped a treat... stop what you're doing and go find it". It's really easy to teach and comes in SOOOO handy for distracting the puppy from something you don't want them focusing on. You have to really ingrain it in the psyche, though and make it a total reflex action... so HIGH value treats - drop one, point to it, "find it"... let her gobble it up... repeat, many, many times.

We used it in training classes, when Denna and one of the other dogs would get in a staring contest and either want to bark at each other or lunge for some play time... I just said "find it" and dropped a treat near my feet... immediate break in eye-contact, redirected to my feet... then to me for another treat - at which point, I had her attention and could ask for a sit/down or anything else. Worked awesome!
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
think you might be making each 'consequence' too much, and that's what she's remembering, instead of having a "giving stuff to mom results in a happy party" memory, she has a "mom always takes my stuff and gets mad and unhappy" memory.

OK, this makes sense. I will have to do some thinking on the transition (helping her to transition out of "guarding" mode) because sometimes when I take the item, it's very, very hard to redirect her attention. Literally, a big piece of juicy chicken will not distract her from what she had, that she no longer has, that I now have in my hand. Maybe I can stuff it quick in my pocket (like a sock) but no dead squirrel is going in my pocket lol. Something like that, I have to usually "hide" in the trash - put it in a bag and bury it down deep. So that requires wrestling her over to the tether line so that I can have her under control while I dispose of the item, shovel up the regurgitated food, etc. I guess the key is getting that done as fast as possible and then going back to 'life as usual' ... just thinking out loud here.

Interestingly ... she usually only guards something ONE time. Of course sometimes it is a one-off like the dead squirrel. Hopefully that incident wouldn't be repeated because I don't expect to have a lot of dead squirrels in my yard ... ugh ... but for example, today when I went out to retrieve Ivy from her fenced area, I deliberately talked happy talk to her while I walked over to her bed and sat down. I know it sounds like I was baiting her, but I really just wanted to see how big of a problem this is and how she would react. She just stood there looking at me like it was no big deal. That? Yeah, that's my bed. Ok, you can sit on it. It's almost as though she really does learn the lesson every time she has to be subdued/restrained and something taken away or her redirected as I did with the bed (since I didn't actually take her bed away from her) ... but then she needs to learn the lesson all over again when she tries to guard a new thing.
 

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
I never did understand the "find it" DennasMom is talking about but I will.be starting that with a good hotdog starting tomorrow. Thank you

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elastigirl

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that's what sucks about object guarding. You just never know what they will decide to guard. You will likely be managing this for her lifetime.

Yep ... sigh ...

We were at the trainer with our other dog last night. The woman that owns the facility happened to come by. She's the trainer who worked with Ivy's mother. So I introduced myself, told her that I had one of Baya's pups and briefly described the problems.

She was suitably concerned lol. She said, and I already knew this but it is always good to have it reinforced, that with this breed you cannot just give 70% or 80% to training. It has to be 100%. Literally cannot give an inch. This is definitely true with Ivy. Thinking back, we have given her more freedom in the yard this past week (mainly because I felt so bad for the poor girl after having the e-collar on for so long). She had 1-3 hours of playtime with her invisible fence collar on each day. So I was monitoring, but basically leaving her to her own devices. I seem to recall her other more serious episodes happening after periods of prolonged "freedom" like this. So we are back to having her on the tether or in her fenced area at all times. Umbilical in the house or crated. For the first time last night I put her in her crate and closed it up to sleep. Up until now she has been permitted to sleep in the kitchen (in a very small area, about 2 1/2' x 8' gated off) with the crate open. I am reducing her freedoms as much as I can to try to resolve this, so last night she was crated ... she did pretty well, cried for about 5 minutes and then settled down for the night, slept until I came down at 7. Right now she's out on the tether. I just noticed my son come out to pet her, and he put her in a sit first which made me smile. I'm trying to remind the kids that every single thing she gets, even a pat on the head, must be "paid" for by work, even just a "sit." They are 14 and 12 and doing a pretty good job helping me with training.

I will keep you all updated ... going back to my "training chart" with a vengeance. I had allowed this to slip by the wayside with the medical issues, just looked and realized I didn't have many entries since her surgery on the 14th (though I have still been doing the training, just not recording it). So I am back to checking my little boxes every single day to be sure I don't miss anything. Am also going to try and keep a record of the issues until we meet with this trainer to try and get a handle on a pattern, if there is one. (And I realize that might be wishful thinking!).

Thanks for all the help.
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
Thank you for starting this post elastigirl.
Our previous Mastiff RIP resource gaurded. We adopted him at 3 and I think he was allowed to do it. We tried and tried to stop the behaviour with no success. My biggest fear is our new guy will resource gaurd because lets face it these guys are big with big mouths and teeth.
I have been trying to teach Linc drop it. He is not very good at it lol
With this post I now will start throwing treats at him and starting at square one

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Yes, the 'drop it' is pretty tough. We have been teaching it for two months and she still hasn't quite gotten it. I have success taking a chew toy away when I toss treats down, but just saying 'drop it' without tossing the treats doesn't yet work. We will keep at it. :) Good luck with Linc!
 

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
Same here, I have to have a treat to get a release. I dont have to drop the treat but its simple he looks at me with the big eyes and I hear him say "what do you got for me"
I am going to start the walk by drop and find it see how that goes

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Hector

Well-Known Member
Yes, the 'drop it' is pretty tough. We have been teaching it for two months and she still hasn't quite gotten it. I have success taking a chew toy away when I toss treats down, but just saying 'drop it' without tossing the treats doesn't yet work. We will keep at it. :) Good luck with Linc!

Do you do any marker training with Ivy? Have you tried using a low value item that she has more chances of dropping? Do you do formal drop it training sessions or you do it when she has something in her mouth? How does she react to the treats being thrown to the ground? Is she excited to go after the treats or is she going for the treats, but also keeping an eye on the toy? Have you tried letting her hold a low value item in her mouth with you holding it and practicing the drop it (or out) command that way and rewarding her every time she releases the toy (sort of like when teaching the out command for tug)?


Maybe you can find some tips in this video:

[video=youtube;Tu2Xz-Be7uw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu2Xz-Be7uw&index=7[/video]

It's best to have the dog give up the item voluntarily or remove the dog from the item rather than trying to grab it from them unless it's an emergency.
You can probably use the "move" command.
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
OK sorry, it's been a long and busy weekend. Good news though. Last night we visited my sister's family and brought Ivy along. She was on the long leash and got hold of my nephew's crocs. My sister went out and asked her to "drop it" and she immediately did! So happy! Luckily I had a bully stick in the car to reward her with. :)

Hector I've bookmarked the videos to watch but have not had a chance yet. But to answer your question, if it's TOO low-value of an item, she won't even be bothered to take it from me in the first place because she knows there is chicken (or whatever high-value thing I'm using for training) and she'd prefer to wait for the good stuff. If it's a super high-value thing like a bully stick she's liable to take it and go to her kennel, thus ending the training session. I'm searching for a mid-value treat I guess, but haven't yet found something that will work.

Yes, I generally do formal training sessions on "drop it" but I also do drive-by treat dropping when I give her a chew toy, just as a matter of habit. She usually puts the chew toy down, takes the treat, and then picks the chew back up again when I do this.