Relation and Health Testing

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by EverythingEnglishMastiff, Oct 7, 2015.

  1. I didn't want to start a new topic but I think because I didn't My questions are going unnoticed. Or maybe I'm just impatient lol.

    Original question located (here).

    I had expressed interest when we got our first EM Hank in breeding. Then forgot about it basically because for a while we just weren't in a position financially to do it properly. We still wanted to get another EM, so as a surprise my wife and neighbor found and surprised me with my 2nd EM Roxy.

    I have been doing some extensive reorganisation and found Roxy's paper to register and did that online last night. While doing so, I also found Hanks. That's when I noticed this.

    2015-10-06 21.48.42.jpg

    The one with blue border is Hank's pedigree, the no border is Roxy's litter pedigree. They both share Rumsey's Lord Marmaduke of V.V. as a great grandfather.

    I've learned a lot since I found this forum. The main thing being I basically don't know shit( even literally). I believe these two should not be paired now because of the relation. I feel slightly trailer trashy and back hills imbreddy now lol. They haven't mated, and they will not mate if they are to closely related. Being as I don't know shit, I wanted opinions from the smart people here on the forum.

    I also wanted to ask if there was a way to look up if any of the dogs in either pedigree were ACTUALLY health tested or not? I feel like I got thrown for a loop due to my own idiocy. Feel free to tell me I have no business breeding at all ever, that I'm a bad doggie parent, and/or I should be taken out back and beaten. lol

    Let me know if you need more info or w/e. I've posted a few things I found on the other thread (linked above).
  2. tlov

    tlov Well-Known Member

    I think you can look up health test results on the OFA website.

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  3. DDSK

    DDSK Well-Known Member

    Are you one of those who like to be abused? :)
    I'm with you I don't know shit either but thinking going back to great grandfather shouldn't be that big of an issue you hillbilly ;)
  4. AKBull

    AKBull Super Moderator Staff Member

  5. I'll look into it. Appreciate it.

    Of course I like abuse. That's why I got married =P

    Cool thanks!
  6. It's my responsibility to do testing of Hank and Roxy right? When you are looking to buy a pup you wants health tests done on dam and sire, not the pups??

    Or the breeder is supposed to do these tests on the litter too?
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2015
  7. DennasMom

    DennasMom Well-Known Member

    I went back through your original thread and could not for the life of me find a question in there...
    Lots of good pictures, though!

    I have no desire to be a breeder... but... from what I've learned here on the forum:

    1. you want to research the genetics of both sire and dam to find out what the potential for genetic disorders is coming to the pair. This should not cost much money, but may be time consuming - unless you can contact your dogs' breeders and get them to send you the info they collected.

    2. you want to have both Hank and Roxy tested for hips and other potential genetic disorders (not sure what else... I'm sure there's more tests available)

    Most of the tests that you could do on the pups don't really have any conclusive results until the dogs are ~2 years old... so that wouldn't be very useful when looking to buy a pup. Which brings up another point - don't breed Hank and Roxy too young... since some disorders won't show until later.

    I would not worry about a common great grandfather... good breeders have been known to line-breed to strengthen traits in their kennels. Not sure if I like that idea... but a great-granddad doesn't bother me, personally.
  8. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    You as the breeder are responsible for doing the health testing on your dogs, unless you have an agreement with your breeder stating otherwise.

    It doesn't mean that you can't breed them together if they share a relative, it would just mean that it is a line breeding based on that line so would double up on those genes, so make sure it is a dog/line you don't mind doubling up on. It looks like the male in questions is 3rd/4th generation in the pedigree so likely will not come heavily into play when breeding but you can always do a COI calculation.

    If the parents are health tested through OFA and were 2 years or older then you should be able to find them in the OFA database under their registered names.
  9. Iymala

    Iymala Well-Known Member

  10. Thank you for the concise response. I've been going back and looking up health testing on all dams and sires as far back as I can get my hands on. I know I had a very specific laundry list of things I was looking for but wasn't exactly sure how to confirm it. Most tests that were done for both lines (Roxy and Hank) was hip and elbows. There are other tests that can be done but maybe these ones seem to be most concerning as far as EM's go?

    By the way if anyone was curious and your dog is registered, you can easily check with their registration number at It will give you their dam and sire's numbers too and can work your way back from there. Totally awesome imo.
  11. Liz_M

    Liz_M Well-Known Member

    Never bred a litter and never will but I've done my research (more with Rottweilers than with EMs, since I had Rottweilers for so long.)

    Once I got educated, my two top concerns - going back through the lines, not just sire and dam - were elbow dysplasia and osteosarcoma (bone cancer). Elbow dysplasia because it is much, much harder to surgically repair than HD - the elbow is a very complex joint and there are no surgeries on any of the possible complications that have a high success rate, unlike HD. And osteo because it is so woefully common in Rottweilers and a really horrible cancer. Mind you there's no testing for osteo (yet) but the last two well-bred pups I bought, I researched the potential pup's history looking for evidence of longevity and minimal cancer deaths down the lines.

    A distant third would be SAS (sub aortic stenosis) which is a "silent" congenital heart disease that typically drops puppies dead in their first year.

    That said, I just googled "english mastiff health testing" and found this, which seems pretty solid:
    A Mastiff Blog: How to Verify a Mastiff Comes From Health Tested Lines
  12. Iymala

    Iymala Well-Known Member

    For Mastiffs the recommended tests are hips, elbows, eyes, and heart.

    The link I posted to the CHIC is Mastiff specific and gives more information on those tests.

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  13. Liz_M

    Liz_M Well-Known Member

    Whoops, too late to edit! I see Iymala already posted an excellent link to the requisite testing for breeding mastiffs.
  14. Thanks everyone. You rock! This has been a good learning experience. I appreciate the info and the links.
  15. ruby55

    ruby55 Well-Known Member

    Here's another site you might want to look at. Carmen Battaglia has been in the breeding and genetics end of the dog world, as well as conformation, for many years. Well respected, if I'm not mistaken. He has a system for doing research to determine what the outcome of a litter would be, but it takes a lot of work. There's also a listing of genetic disorders where testing is available, with breeds listed. I'm not saying you should do all of these tests; but the info is there for you.

    Breeding Better Dogs | Home
  16. Thanks ruby55. IF I even decide to breed at all, it won't be at least for another year and 3 months from now (Will get Roxy health tested between 24-26 months). I'm trying to educate myself as best I can. For myself, my dogs, the puppies, and the potential dog owners in the future.

    I would feel horrible if I bred anything other than the best I could provide. I am also not comfortable with the idea of being considered a BYB among my peers. No. We will go about this the best way we can or it's simply not going to happen. I will be happy either way.

    I've also just realized I haven't personally dealt/lived with a BIG dog in heat. My other much smaller dogs were always semi-messy. Any first hand tips, tricks etc. for dealing with a Mastiff sized bitch in heat? Should I buy diapers?

    I have a feeling Roxy's first heat is coming very soon. Hank's been "Happy" a lot more than usual lately and I caught him last night trying to hump during play. Though, we did just spend about a week with a very hump happy dog, not sure if it's real humping or a bad behavior. Either way It's not allowed (yet).

    Roxy isn't looking very "puffy" or engorged yet. No spotting or anything. But I feel like lately the hormones might be a little elevated.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
  17. Liz_M

    Liz_M Well-Known Member

    My little Fiona went through a heat before being spayed (my vet and I agreed on this being best for her and in fact for any bitch.) She is not a big dog, 25 lbs or so, but I can tell you she showed almost no outward physical signs - no bleeding or noticeable swelling except for the few days she was in her "well HELLO sailor" mode and flagging anything that moved. :p I did not have, or allow her access to, an intact male, obviously.

    What I noticed was that for 2-3 weeks prior to her being in full heat, and for at least two weeks afterwards, I had stray dogs (lived in the city then) circling my yard like sharks. And, no joke: two weeks after I figured she was done I had her at an agility trial and an intact Great Dane found her so attractive that when he couldn't get to her he hiked his leg and peed all over ME. >.<

    So right about now is when you might want to start crating and rotating or keeping them separate, and keep doing so for longer than you might think necessary. I'm guessing this is when most "oops" litters happen; when people think it can't happen, but then it does.
  18. Iymala

    Iymala Well-Known Member

    I also suggest 2 barriers between them. A crate and a closed door. As I well know, they can bust out of their crate with enough determination.

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  19. I don't have crates or the money to just go buy them. I also have the luxury (if that's what you would call it) of not having to leave my home, for anything, hence they are under constant supervision. Unless I'm sleeping.

    I will def keep a close eye and they will be separated at night. Usually I know when one the neighbors dogs is going into heat by the way that Hank starts acting (panting, whining, crying, generally acting a fool). If it gets bad, by that meaning Hank's going nuts, I will have no choice but keep one inside, one outside. Or separate them in different rooms.

    2015-10-08 18.07.44.jpg 2015-10-08 18.07.50.jpg
    Hank trying to allow himself out.
  20. Liz_M

    Liz_M Well-Known Member

    You just reminded me of a story my old vet told me to illustrate this. Client had two opposite-sex intact dogs, a Sheltie bitch and a Dalmatian. Sheltie came into heat so owner left dog outside and bitch inside when she went to work. Came home and the Dalmatian had chewed his way through siding, insulation and interior Sheetrock and got to the Sheltie.

    Indeed the couple of people I know who have intact dogs do the two-barrier rule. It's extra peace of mind. When I had two Rottweilers who wanted to eliminate each other we did this (and it still wasn't fool-proof.)

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