What's new
Mastiff Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Welcome back!

    We decided to spruce things up and fix some things under the hood. If you notice any issues, feel free to contact us as we're sure there are a few things here or there that we might have missed in our upgrade.

Puppy biting- shock collar??

TexasRose

Active Member
So I'll start a new thread rather than hijack an existing one. :) Our puppy, Kuna, is 15 weeks old and his puppy biting is a little out of control at times. He's mouthing our hands, grabbing at clothing, his leash, etc. We give him a quick pop on the leash and say No (he's on leash at all times in the house), then put him into a down position. But he'll even mouth my hand as I put hi into a down. I know puppy biting is part of their development but I'd like to make sure we're handling it appropriately. He has grabbed our 7 year old's clothing several times this weekend and ripped 2 shirts before we got him off. I'm having to open his mouth with my hand to get him to let go. I don't think it's aggression at all, I think he's playing and being a puppy. However, I don't want a 100+ lb adult CC thinking this is ok so we want to stop it now.

Our trainer uses E-collars with most of the dogs he trains once they're at least 20 weeks, depending on what they need and the situation. When I spoke with him yesterday he said that he may start using it with Kuna now to snap him out of the moment when he mouths people. He said that he would only be using the vibration setting, no impulses, because he's so young. The trainer has 20 + years experience with military working dogs, as well as pets, and has trained CC's before. What do ya'll think? The trainer said that it's very important that Kuna does not think he is dominant to our daughter and that we cannot allow him to "win" over here ever. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts and advice. Thanks! :)
 

angelbears

Well-Known Member
May I ask where in Texas you are? We had a trainer with basically the same credentials and he almost ruined my dog, we are in the Houston area. He was supposedly great with pits, mals, and sheps. Mastiffs are totally different dogs, they don't pee all over themselves just to please you. Don't get me wrong mastiffs are very smart and very loyal but they are very stubborn.
 

Marrowshard

Well-Known Member
We use an e-collar on our dog, but then again he's four years old. I'd have serious reservations about putting an e-collar on a puppy and I'd think twice about a trainer that jumps to that conclusion on such a young animal. It really does sound like the pup's just playing. I agree it's not appropriate given the shirt-tearing and the age of your children but I really think an e-collar would be huge overkill.
Oscar was only given an e-collar after we'd been through prong and dominant-dog collars and were having to apply too much physical force. He was a rescued dog who had apparently had people hauling on his neck and wasn't really being affected by the usual correction methods. Then, and only then, did our trainer recommend an e-collar and require that I come in for a session to learn how to use it. They're powerful tools but I really feel strongly that a trainer who uses them all the time on any dog over 20 weeks probably doesn't have the dog's best interests at heart. I know you say he's a pro and I'm not disputing that, but it's like using a bulldozer to knock over an anthill. Sometimes you might actually need it, but lots of times a much smaller, simpler tool will do the same thing.
Honestly, sounds to me like he's trying to take the "easy way" with the dogs he trains instead of figuring out the best overall strategy for the particular case.

~Marrow
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
There is no way I would put an e collar on a pup that young, especially a Corso who is teething and doing what is natural.
To establish your daughter's "rank" I would instead have her feeding and aid in training, my son started feeding our dogs at 3 as well as working with the leash training and commands.
As for the biting, well... That will go away if you stay on it. Ripped clothes are not fun, but it sounds like you have a drivey CC. I suggest getting a puppy tug, suede shammy or making/buying a flirt pole to get some of that energy out, get him something he can bite and focus on. As well as teaching "out" ASAP. A high value treat, give him something to bite, once biting say out while letting him catch scent of the treat, when he lets go tons of praise and the treat. Shouldn't take long to train him that one. That is one of our very first commands. Now doesn't matter what is in our dogs mouths, could be their fav food, we say out and it comes out. But you have to make them want to out to begin with.
 

TexasRose

Active Member
Thanks for the advice everyone. We're in the central Texas area, 3 hours from Houston. The trainer is going to come over and observe the behavior before deciding what to do, he just mentioned using the collar. I'll work on the "out" command as well. Our daughter does help with feeding and walking Kuna, but we'll step that up as well. Thanks everyone.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
I would personally run, not walk, away from that trainer. I agree with Cody that I would never use an e-collar on a puppy at that age, and it would be massive overkill for this kind of problem. Additionally, I would also be concerned about the trainer's philosophy and methods if he has trained working military dogs for 20 yrs. Whilst as I understand it military methods have been modified more recently in response to studies on aversive techniques and shock collars such as Schilder, M. (2004). 2003. Training dogs with help of the shockcollar: short and longterm behavioural effects, 85(3-5), 319-334, older methods were primarily aversive/punishment based techniques, including ones most of us would find totally abhorrent such as 'hanging' and kicking dogs. I would at the very least have a thorough discussion with him to understand his approaches.

We use a different command ('drop it') versus Cody's 'out', we use the same training method and it has worked well. Also agree with Cody's other suggestions.
 

bellareea320

Well-Known Member
I agree with Cody and Jadotha as far as the e-collar . My CC is 19 weeks and she is teething so bad. She lost three teeth that we found in the last few days. I give her chew toys, and a frozen wash cloth and lots of iced cubes. With enough attention they will stop. I still occationally have to tell her to be easy with my hands. I allow her to mouth with only me so I can teach her bite inhibition and how to be gentle with the kids. Theres a fine line and she knows how to play this way and I say "leave it" and she lets go, if I say "easy" she starts to let go and lick my hand. You must give huge rewards for good behavior when it comes to biting. You have to really know your own dog and work on it for a while and dont give up or get frustrated.
 

Robtouw

Well-Known Member
I would not use an e collar on a pup! I had the same biting issues with Cruiser until this week. Between 10 & 14 weeks he was nipping, biting and ripping at everything while teething. This past week it has been like someone has flipped a switch. Suddenly he is mouthing but not biting. Big difference! Every now and then he gets a little too hard and we have to remind him to be careful. Easy is the word we are using but he has been 100% better than the past few weeks. With my last OEM we also went through a biting issue. It was somewhere around 4 months before Buddy understood his strength and began to stop biting. I think they get to a point in age where they begin to understand that they are bigger then they thought. You can now see Cruiser think about how hard he is mouthing. He watches you intently when he grabs your hand or arm and releases when he thinks you are uncomfortable.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
Before you embark on the shock collar try setting some boundaries first on this pup first. Just like their are things you don't let your children get away with a pup is no different. Both take work.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
Boris, our EM was really difficult about the play-biting from about 12 t0 15 weeks. Then seemed to 'get it' (with a lot of work, lol) and improved dramatically over the next few weeks. At five months, like Robtouw's and Belareeas's pups, he now will only mouth very gently; if he puts any pressure, we say, 'gentle' and he will immediately desist and lick. Interestingly, we didn't go through this phase with our IWHs or GDs
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
Denna was real mouthy the first month she was home with us.

I tried the "gag" reflex recommended by the Monks of New Skete - but that didn't work. Holding her mouth open until she wanted to back off did help a little - i.e. if she went to bite on my hand, my hand went all the way in her mouth... until she backed off.

But, the best thing with her was just a really high pitched "yelp" or "ow"... same as her siblings would do. That was the thing that best got her attention. And, sounds like a similar experience to a lot of others here - one day the switch went on, and she stopped (95% of the time, anyway).

We use "careful" in a calm, low tone of voice similar to a momma-dog's growl when she gets overly excited and nippy... that calms her down. I use "gentle" for giving treats... so she learns not to take the fingers with the treat. ;)
 

jamesb

Well-Known Member
we generally just put a toy in Juno's mouth, but like some have said, she has just gotten better with time. she would nip at the kids as they ran by but she has just sorta stopped. she will still mouth and chew on my hand occasionally but i normally just put a chew toy or the kitten in her mouth. whatever is closest.


the kitten part was just a joke.
 

TexasRose

Active Member
Thanks for the advice everyone. We did a lot of the same things y'all described when my bulldog was a pup. I think that Kuna must just be going through a really mouthy/ teething phase. I agree that going straight to a collar for normal puppy behavior is extreme and has the potential for negative side effects. I'll discuss my concerns with the trainer when he comes over tonight. Thanks everyone. It's great hearing that you've all been through it too, lol.
 

tchvt

Well-Known Member
As a behaviorist and trainer there is NO WAY I would put a ECollar on a puppy. You are dealing with a puppy that is teething and also trying to find his way in the pack. Diverting to an appropriate toy to chew on, immediate correction, or time out if it becomes to rough, these are my suggestions. There must be rules and consequenses when rules are broken, also at this age I hope you have started manners at least the pup needs to work for things. If he just comes up and starts biting for attention to play this can roll into other dominate traits. With the latching onto the clothes and not letting go with pups I have often rolled their lips under their teeth when they become mouthy and they feel how hurtful those teeth are. When pups are with their littermates they learn how hard they can bite by playing with the rest of the litter. If the pup was taken from the litter younger than 9wks sometimes you have to enforce this more. I am a big fan "time outs' if a pup becomes to rowdy, remove him from the situation with the command NO BITE and put in a crate or outside for 5-10 minutes. Being kicked from the pack will truly make a mark in thier mind about what is right and what is wrong. Another thing you can do for distraction is if he gets mouthy is take a empty water bottle with 10 pennies in it and shake it when he gets focused on biting with the command NO BITE again. I would try these before anyone get near a puppy with a ECOLLAR.

I have trained Military dogs to go overseas in the current war effort, police dogs for San Diego , and many working breeds and mastiffs of all variety I have never had to resort to an ecollar, to me when a trainer has to turn to that they really don't know the dog and how to modify the behavior or work with them dog to get them to work effectively so they turn to that
 

voidecho

Well-Known Member
But, the best thing with her was just a really high pitched "yelp" or "ow"... same as her siblings would do.

This is what our trainer suggested to our class. Basically told us to let him mouth us this week and if he did it hard enough it hurt, to yelp loudly. Then as we move forward every week with our classes to yelp quicker each week, i.e. with less and less pressure until after five or six weeks we don't let him bite us at all. We'll give it a shot and see how it works.

She really recommended time outs too if he gets too roudy.
 
Last edited:

TexasRose

Active Member
Tchvt- Thanks for all the advice. We have been diverting his attention when he's biting. We'll direct him to a toy or something appropriate for him to chew on and this works sometimes. If the behavior persists then he's put into his crate to calm down. We definitely don't reward any pushy behavior. If he's not sitting down calmly he doesn't get any attention at all. So when he approaches us and starts biting we tell him No, remove whatever is in his mouth, and make him lay down. He's on leash at all times in the house and yard, except for a couple off leash play times during the day, so we always give him a pop on the leash as well if he does something we don't agree with, like biting. We have been working on manners as well. He knows a sit and down command. He knows that he will not be let out of his crate until he's sitting calmly. He is fed in his crate and he also knows that his food will not be placed in front of him unless he's sitting calmly. He walks great on the leash as well. No accidents in the house for 3 weeks now. :) He was with his litter until 10 weeks old. I really appreciate all of the insight from everyone.
 

Sadies Mom

Well-Known Member
I had the same issue with Sadie. I am working on getting all the ripped clothes replaced :D. She is now 6 months old and only occasionally bites. I used time outs and/or leaving the room. I still have to do this sometimes, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. The yelping did not work at all with her, it actually made it worse. I would just use the time outs and/or leaving the room and consistency and patience is the key. Good luck and keep us posted.
 

TexasRose

Active Member
Update! :) So the trainer evaluated Kuna and we discussed other methods of getting him to stop the puppy biting. We've worked the "out" and "leave it" commands. Our trainer warned us that e-collars are very controversial and that I would probably get a huge variety of responses on here. I do have to say that I trust our trainer, he's done brilliant work with our american bulldog and several other dogs we know so we will follow his guidance. We do have the e-collar here but we have not had to use it. It seemed like as soon as we discussed the biting with the trainer Kuna decided to stop, lol. Also, as soon as he starts mouthing me now if he doesn't stop after re-direction he's put into his crate for a time out. He's been doing really well though. Thanks for all the insight from everyone. :)