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Need advice from fila owners... Dogman, ChuckOrlando?

Tiger12490

Well-Known Member
I think you and the cafib need to hang up the close phonetic differences because honestly all that angulation and yadayada is subjective because there are better dogs then a fila for most of its task and they look different... worry more about ojerza and less about silly little things .....I'm not saying if it bites strangers and looks like a Chihuahua call it a fila but come on color, lip split these things could all be based on where the dog comes from and what it was bred for I can guarentee all fila didn't do all the jobs... just like all Abs didn't guard and all of them didn't chase hogs.. thats where phonetic differences in a breed come from that's why there multiple variations of a breed they weren't all used for the same thing......and I wanted something out of the breed then u.. I just don't understand these minute details that are mostly just so the 2 clubs can bash each other...mostly the cafib.....hang it up worry more about balanced temps which both sides need to work on...

Tapd on my skyrocket
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
Fair enough. Thank you. As I said, I could just have a perception problem. hahahahaha.
Chuck, "I never said you said they approved them to breed. I said you admit cafib puts out some bad dogs that could be mixed." O.K, yes, that is possible but then they would get reproved unlike the cbkc where they would get a championship...see the difference there?

"When I say end all be all I mean you speak in absolutes 90% of the time. Oh we are consistent, THEY are not. Which according to your own statements, you like some non cafib's there for not all of THEY should be included in broad statments." I swear, I mean no disrespect but when I am talking about dogs NOTHING is 100%..we are talking about living things arent we? this doesnt mean that out of every litter a neo, dane and an em popping up should be o.k and considered normal I am talking about within a litter having some pups with better angulations then others and so forth like that and if that is what you consider to be inconsistent then you cannot consider any breed in the world consistent. Sometimes I dont know what level people are on as far as dogs go so forgive me if I make a statement like "consistent" and someone takes that to mean that they all come out clones as if it were a car assembly line.

"But after admitting the above you then say " How can there be anything other than "end all be all" when we talk about pureness? can we allow just a little pureness or just a little mixed bred? it cannot alter it's stand to allow something other than example of real Fila Brasileiros to breed otherwise they WILL be exactly like the CBKC "---- Yes cafib wont let them be breed, but they show up in the litters, you just dont breed them. " This statement right here shows that you dont understand what CAFIB does so i will explain...you can take ANY dog to a CAFIB show, no pedigree, no anything, it can even be a cbkc champion, CAFIB parents or not, it doesnt matter. the judge will see what its faults are, its movement, its temperament, its nervous system and also see if there are any mixed bred faults. it is given an approval to breed or not, if it breeds its pups will be eval'd if they show no signs of mixed breeding they too will be approved, if not then they are not and scrutiny goes towards the parents.. if you know you mixed bred you wont show the dog and that dog wont get analyzed. CAFIB can care less if you have CAFIB and non CAFIB dogs but if you plan to be a member and breed by their guidlines then you shouldnt breed against it. In onciero (CAFIB in Czech republic) if you breed a dam or sire that has not been approved then you are banned from the club, keeps ya honest dont it?

"Sorry, I added the 40yr but you sayed the rest but I got the 40 from here--------
now if for 40 yrs you keep that mix going with good records and the final outcome breeds consistently with the same look , type, structure, temp, etc then sir you have started a new breed." And that is correct a "NEW" breed not a fila but something else, maybe a cousin or so.

"
I'll give you this. I was mistaken. It aint a matter of reading or not reading a standard. I thought he visited multiple kennels." no problem brother.

"Gang banging black folks was confirmed by gang banging black folks as well. If you have 10 people in a line and 2 of them admit to spitting, does that make all 10 spitters? No." No it is not like saying that at all... lets take this shall we: 10 people in a line, 2 admit to spitting but those 2 also said I taught those other 8 to spit, we went around spitting everywhere, the police has photos of all 10 spitting... now does that make all 10 spitters? YES! Sometimes you dont have to admit what is so obvious. see a few admitted to mixed breeding and they admitted to selling dogs that were bred to other XYZ kennels...does XYZ kennels need to confirm that they too mixed bred? NO! it is in the pedigrees, whether they want to tell you (John Q. Public) is a matter of integrity which shows they have very little.

"Ni back to the 3000 pups. If you have a line that seems pure, and after 10yrs of breeding all pure pups you get a litter with one throw back. That maybe maybe not mix you talked about earlier. Does that one pup not throw suspesion on the whole line?" hmm, good question... a throwback to what exactly? This is a good question because we do not know the exact ancestry to the fila so if you believe that it came from EM, EB and bloodhound and it throws a bloodhound "mask" or a kink tail from a bulldog it doesnt nec. mean that they are mixed bred but those dogs are not used anymore... take for example the apbt, they are sometimes born with kinks in their tails, not part of the standard so they are disqual but not mixed either. but if for reason we get a fluffy collie tail on a fila then something is wrong. remember a high earset or tail set are not disqualifications, just faults. depending on how bad the faults are the dog can me disqual'd but this is pretty basic stuff with any breed... anything far off from the standard will weigh more heavily. I hat to pick on Bubba do eshabeta this much but to me, he represents everything that is wrong... look at him and see if he can be a "throwback" or a mix...there is no question that he is a mix and im not a judge, and because he was bred over and over and over, used by multiple breeders then YES! they are all mixed and to say anything different would mean that one is obviously hiding something.

PLEASE READ THIS IF NOTHING ELSE!

Guys, what you fail to realize is that everything about the fila made it possible to work correctly...a split (which is usually exessive lips) is a fault because as the fila goes to grab an animal or a person it would grab its own lips and puncture them (a trait for working), the low earset is for tracking a dog with higher earset will not be as good (a work trait), the tail insertion is formed by the formation and structure of the bones in the rear... a high insertion means short bones which means less long, lean muscle mass in the rear that enables the dog to get his powerful and effortless stride from his rear legs (a huge issue and also a working issue) this also coincides with rear angulation. the fila head is shaped the way is (Pear shaped, broad then narrowing and broadening up again towards the front of the mouth) because it uses the front of the mouth to hold and not the rear molars...too thin up front and it wont have any power, too short and broad and it losses "wind" and will tend to use molars Not great if it was your goat/sheep as it would snap that bone easily. EVERYTHING about the fila must be considered, EVERYTHING because it ALL correlates to how the fila works, moves, etc. by taking something away you lessened its efficiency as a whole. I really do hope you guys understand why it is important to view the overall specimen and not just one aspect because I dont know how much clearer I can be here.


---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 PM ----------

Tiger and DD I tend to agree. I have seen plenty of dogs that one would say and have said dont look like a fila. But I see a fila. hahahaha. Maybe not the best looking thing but an obvious Fila in there. I dont look at ears or lips really. I look at the stop, smother than mastiffy head, roman nose, raised rear. Of coarse I think we all know what I mean. I can certainly see Juans side as a purist. And again, if I believed there was any way in the world we would end up with one Fila in the end, I would take up the cause. I just dont see it happening.

I'm more concerned with the dog acting right and living right. And I under stand how mixes would really affect that. But I think mixing breeds is an issue all in and of it's self that transcends either group and should be dealt with.
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
Tiger and DD I tend to agree. I have seen plenty of dogs that one would say and have said dont look like a fila. But I see a fila. hahahaha. Maybe not the best looking thing but an obvious Fila in there. I dont look at ears or lips really. I look at the stop, smother than mastiffy head, roman nose, raised rear. Of coarse I think we all know what I mean. I can certainly see Juans side as a purist. And again, if I believed there was any way in the world we would end up with one Fila in the end, I would take up the cause. I just dont see it happening.

I'm more concerned with the dog acting right and living right. And I under stand how mixes would really affect that. But I think mixing breeds is an issue all in and of it's self that transcends either group and should be dealt with.
 

slim12

Well-Known Member
I do agree with the above 'please read this portion of the post'....i get the "function and form" concept...i understand ear set and lips and tails are there because the original filas did certain things and the ones that completed these certain things more than likely had the same or at least 'like' traits...my issue with both organizations, maybe more so the phenotype/conformation show dog mentality, is that very few breeds apply these conformation traits to real life/real time activity...with the show aspect mentality a dog that has all the working ability in the world will be set aside/frowned upon because the outward appearance does not line up with the standard....it is like winning wesminster with a beagle that has never even been in the bushes...never ran with a pack of dogs...heck, never even seen a rabbitt...but when papa shows up with a beagle with 8 rabbitts in the bag and that beagle has a pointed/feist like nose...that beagle is frowned upon because of his head shape/muzzle structure...
i like dogs that do what they were bred to do or what they were trained to do, and in most situations, both....i like beagles that jump and run, i like GSD that will work, i like pointers that point, catch dogs that catch....i like filas that defend (and i use defend because in the industrialized world there are no real needs for the fila of old, at least very few and vary far in between...what i do not like is the owner who tells me the dog is bred like this, and this particular appearance trait is for this or that but my dog has never done any of these things these traits were identified for...but my outwardly appearing dog fits the standard better than "papa's beagle" so my beagle is a better specimen/represenative of what the breed should be than yours....if that makes sense...
i wish the fila owners/breeders of yesteryear had followed the path of the GSD/malinois/Rottweiler people way back when...OK, there are no sheep to herd anymore, but these dogs have basic traits, basic drives, basic working abilities that can be applied to other forms of work...then the fila would be further along the working genetic path now, instead of being predominantly bred for an outward appearance...which has been the downfall to most every breed out there...slim12
 

aceoutdoor

Well-Known Member
Slim my dogs have a great prey drive. There are still bloodlines that get worked/hunted. Not everyone likes that though, but it exist.
 

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a "good/decent" its human nature we want/like “nice†things. Let’s not forget that my interpretation of “nice†may not be another person’s interpretation of “nice.†Its fine we all have different opinions. My thing is that we shouldn't discriminate a dog to such a degree of petty measures of appearance in place of work. Granted most of things working dogs are breed for have been outlawed or not available. However we should be finding ways to promote what a breed was not based on its outward appearance. When the main focus is appearance we "lose" the breed over time.

If breeder(s) dismisses a dog from a breeding program for a "poor" specimen in place "perfect" one, how can that be improving/bettering the breed? What if the dog with the roman "nose" has a good temp, drive, and is healthy, but just because a standard says "roman" nose is not "desirable" the dog is not breed. Meanwhile the dog that is deemed a "perfect" nose has a good temp, health, but no interest what so ever to do what it was breed to for, gets breed. That doesn’t make any sense to me. Not mention you greatly limit the breeding pool that might result in health, temp problems down the line.

After all breeds were made by what they do, which gives reason to their “uniform" appearance. However if one wants to get "technical" they would see that these animals do have variances to them slight or robust as they may be.

If anything breeders should learn from past working breeds, not follow the same path down. Yet people get too caught in money, politics, reputation, that they "forget" about the breed the fell in love with.
 

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
I agree with all of you but what you seem to be forgetting is that CAFIB is the working dog club of the breed and cbkc is the show club... BTW Roman nose is liked in the fila breed. I also agree that the fila may not do ALL those other things that it was bred to do but some do all or most of those things still...ie working cattle, defense and even cadaver searches. I would like for you guys to know as well that CAFIB is the only one that tests for nervous system, and temp before being bred (Actually so does unifila but their dogs fit into the CAFIB standard for the most part anyways)...cbkc only requires temp test for championships. a split lip/excessive is a hinderance in any breed that must use its mouth, it is dtrimental to the dog.
 

aceoutdoor

Well-Known Member
Good post DD. And the comments about inbreeding have some truth. There is line breeding and there is inbreeding. Line breeding can be permissible if done sparingly and for a good reason. Inbreeding is unacceptable. The state of Goiás is almost exclusively all CAFIB and the pedigrees for many of the dogs that are from that area are sinful. Whole pedigrees with 4-6 dogs or just ****. And you would assume the result of all that "tight family" would be some consistency, you would be wrong. Check out some of the huge kennels in that state and see for yourself.
 

dogman#1

Well-Known Member
ace... there are many in that "state" please refer to the many that you are referring to. I would like to see this "inconsistency" you speak of. Thanks bro.
 

chuckorlando

Well-Known Member
Me to and I googled it and found alot of breeders in the area, but hardly any fila web sits. Lotta bull dogs though
 

slim12

Well-Known Member
there is nothing wrong with in breeding but one would have to know the entire family and breed the traits (desired or undesired)...here is an example...and i will use CAFIB and CBKC as bloodlines just for the sake of arguing....there is a cafib male....he is bred to a cbkc daughter....the puppies on paper are a 50% of each....one of the females is carrying every trait of her father...she is cafib thru and thru...the other daughter is everything cbkc...thru and thru just like her mom....then there is a third daughter whose genetics are split between the two...traits from each are easily visible....breeding any of these bitches to their father is inbreeding...especially on paper...but in reality if the father is bred to the first daughter this is inbreeding...they are like and odds (good odds) are they will produce the same...breeding him to the second daughter is pretty much the same as the original breeding based on traits...breeding to the third daughter would be a total crapshoot all the way around...there is no way to have even an jnkling of what they will throw....the truly competitive breeds like bulldogs and greyhounds where winning is and success is far more than subjective opinion inbreeding has been extremely successful...the key is breeding traits not breeding papers or families....







Good post DD. And the comments about inbreeding have some truth. There is line breeding and there is inbreeding. Line breeding can be permissible if done sparingly and for a good reason. Inbreeding is unacceptable. The state of Goiás is almost exclusively all CAFIB and the pedigrees for many of the dogs that are from that area are sinful. Whole pedigrees with 4-6 dogs or just ****. And you would assume the result of all that "tight family" would be some consistency, you would be wrong. Check out some of the huge kennels in that state and see for yourself.