Need advice from fila owners... Dogman, ChuckOrlando?

[allsierra123]

That is true it's basic genetics.

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[dogman#1]

Allsierra, it is basic and it should be common knowledge for any breeder of any breed but when you have no consistency what else can you say? If you say the truth few will buy and those that do will not pay the price of a pure specimen so what to do, what to do?...Oh yea, just say that the pure fila doesnt exist and therefore yours is just as bad as mine, lol.

 

[aceoutdoor]

Juan breeders who have been doing this for almost 40 years say the same thing. Respected breeders, experts on the breed, real actual experts with more experience than you and I put together several times over. No one is saying inject non Fila blood into the breed today, that is wrong. No one is saying soften them up either. Most breeds were created, some in less than a decade. Filas evolved over hundreds of years in a large country and there was new blood pumped into that gene pool everyday. They weren't in kennels, they wandered. Its not a new theory to sell puppies(for some maybe?), its history.


"Oh yea, just say that the pure fila doesnt exist and therefore yours is just as bad as mine, lol."

Its not that at all. Its a realization that we will never know the real makeup. We both know how each other feels. I respect your desire to spread your ideology and agree with parts of it, but its not going to take off in the US. This forum needs a beating the dead horse smiley.

 

[dogman#1]

Ace, that is just not true. There are many breeds that went through the same evolution that the fila had gone through and they do breed true just like the fila does (the pure ones anyway). take ANY of the large flock guardian breeds... they roamed with the sheep by themselves through vast areas of land, yes some bred with other dogs and so on and we will never know their true genetic makeup but the fact that it happened many years ago does not make them mutts today...get it? farmers, ranchers, herders all over the world didnt kennel their dogs so with the logic that has been passed down to you from these "very knowledgeable" breeders none of those breeds should be consistent...right? yet they are...how would those breeders that have been in the breed for 40 yrs explain that? Now ask them to explain how CAFIB has been able to MAINTAIN consistency while 95% of the non CAFIB breeders cannot? I cannot pretend to know what went into the genetic make up of a GSD but I know that they breed in a consistent fashion and are therefore a breed. I can also see the consistency in many fila bloodlines and they too bred in a consistent fashion so they must be a breed. If the dogs you own from those "expert" breeders (you know the ones that havent been able to produce a consistent breeding in over 40 years) cannot breed true and consistently produce like pups then I am sorry to say that is not a breed... a type maybe but not a breed. Lets take a hog dog for example...any breed can be a hog dog as long as it is capable in tracking, trailing, baying a hog... if you happened to mix a bulldog and a border collie that were both good hog dogs you didnt produce a breed all you did was mix 2 dogs that have one desired trait.. the pups will not be consistent and may or may not have some or none of the desired traits... now if for 40 yrs you keep that mix going with good records and the final outcome breeds consistently with the same look , type, structure, temp, etc then sir you have started a new breed... A person can create a breed in way less than 40 yrs, the fact that those experts have not been able to do so in over 40 yrs should speak volumes of their expertise in dog breeding.

 

[chuckorlando]

I aint sure thats what he meant Juan. Least not what I got from it. Basicly you have multiple types. I would assume all carry alot of the same caracteristics. But many types just the same. Each breeder can produce a consitant pup time after time of the type they chose to breed.

So basicly, cafib chose the type they say is correct, and continue breeding that type

I could be wrong, but thats what I gathered

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------

yes some bred with other dogs and so on and we will never know their true genetic makeup but the fact that it happened many years ago does not make them mutts today...get it?

That statment right there is a hell of a statment considering alot of the ckbc folks argue that very point.

 

[chuckorlando]

yes some bred with other dogs and so on and we will never know their true genetic makeup but the fact that it happened many years ago does not make them mutts today...get it?

That statment right there is a hell of a statment considering alot of the ckbc folks argue that very point.

 

[dogman#1]

the difference is they argue the point of mixed breeding after the breed had already been established...the breeding that went on to MAKE the breed is the unknown, the mixing that went on after the breed was established is well known and documented but those are already mixed and should not continue to be used especially not with pure bred specimens. take for example the Akita Inu and the American Akita...these are not different types of the same breed...One is mixed bred to hell and eventually developed consistency and was then registered as a different breed. thse folks with the non CAFIB filas have a hard time achieving consistency because there are just too many dogs with different breeds in them to ever find some sort of consistency. they need to get together, find the one that they can like the best and then breed towards that and then call it the Brazilian mastiff. As you all know the American Akita is very popular and I actually prefer it over the Akita Inu.. but both have a following and one does not pretend to be the other as what occurs in the fila breed.

Chuck, Ace and I know each other for a long time and we have this same argument over and over... he states that the "Fila" does not breed to a consistent type because it is still evolving...another words the breed itself has not been established, right? because as we all know there is no breed w/o consistency, correct? If you look at multiple non cafib kennels you will find multiple "types" even within one kennel...this is just unacceptable. there is only one type the Fila Brasileiro, if the others are part fila or variants then they need to get registered as such.

 

[Tiger12490]

Not necessarily true Juan the Cane, Presa, apbt and many many other breeds have types within there breed and those are way more established breeds.... that's how I feel it is anyway of course it needs to quack like a fila but there are different types of the fila even within the cafib there are visual differences...I could care less about the purity of a working dog though....

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[aceoutdoor]

Chuck, Ace and I know each other for a long time and we have this same argument over and over... he states that the "Fila" does not breed to a consistent type because it is still evolving...another words the breed itself has not been established, right? because as we all know there is no breed w/o consistency, correct? If you look at multiple non cafib kennels you will find multiple "types" even within one kennel...this is just unacceptable. there is only one type the Fila Brasileiro, if the others are part fila or variants then they need to get registered as such.

I never said it is still evolving, I said there are different types. Anatolian Shepherds which I have owned are an example of a breed which we do not know the exact make up, however they have been uniform for the past century, one type. Filas have never been uniform in the last century, there have always been at least 2 types of REAL Filas in Brazil alone. And there are several types of Filas today in Brazil and around the world. And of coarse there are dogs being sold as Filas that are not Filas at all. But if you know the breed you know if you have a Fila, like Tiger said there should be no mistaking a Fila with proper structure and behavior. There will always be several types of Filas.

 

[dogman#1]

Ace, are there 2 types? I can post atleast 4. One will be CAFIB and the others will be non CAFIB. so yes, with that way of thinking there are only 2, CAFIB and non CAFIB. but CAFIB has one and non CAFIB has atleast 3 most will argue 5 types.... so when you say there is 2 I am guessing that you are referring to CAFIB and ONE of the types that the non CAFIB has to offer... which one do you like out of those types and why?

---------- Post added at 09:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

the problem is that a person can somehow look at 5 completely different dogs w/ diff. structure and somehow deduce that they are the same breed. I cant see that at all though, I look at those dogs and see either, no fila, some fila or just some sort of crazy mixture of multiple breeds. the working aspect itself does not make a fila a fila....yes ofcourse that is the most important thing but if it doesnt look AND act like a fila then it isnt one, def. not one that should be bred anyways.

 

[dogman#1]

the problem is that a person can somehow look at 5 completely different dogs w/ diff. structure and somehow deduce that they are the same breed. I cant see that at all though, I look at those dogs and see either, no fila, some fila or just some sort of crazy mixture of multiple breeds. the working aspect itself does not make a fila a fila....yes ofcourse that is the most important thing but if it doesnt look AND act like a fila then it isnt one, def. not one that should be bred anyways.

---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------

Not necessarily true Juan the Cane, Presa, apbt and many many other breeds have types within there breed and those are way more established breeds.... that's how I feel it is anyway of course it needs to quack like a fila but there are different types of the fila even within the cafib there are visual differences...I could care less about the purity of a working dog though....

Tiger, I see we are getting types and breeds confused here...to me the boxer CC and the mastiffy looking one are not just diff. types within the same breed, they are different breeds with different traits. the apbt is a different animal altogether... which is the correct apbt to you? the adba standard, akc, ukc, etc? If I see another blue hippo being called a pit I think i may just pass out, if I see another APBT playing with a kitten, I may just pass out, If I see another 90lb pit, I may just pass out... those aren't what a real apbt is suppose to look like or act like. type differences would be like this...short and long haired St. Bernard as they have the same standard except for the hair length (if Im not mistaken). now what if you started seeing basset hound looking st bernards and GD looking saints and em, neo looking ones...are those just diff types? NO! they are mixes, nothing more and nothing less. they may be able to work like a saint but a saint they are not.

 

[dogman#1]

Not necessarily true Juan the Cane, Presa, apbt and many many other breeds have types within there breed and those are way more established breeds.... that's how I feel it is anyway of course it needs to quack like a fila but there are different types of the fila even within the cafib there are visual differences...I could care less about the purity of a working dog though....

Tiger, I see we are getting types and breeds confused here...to me the boxer CC and the mastiffy looking one are not just diff. types within the same breed, they are different breeds with different traits. the apbt is a different animal altogether... which is the correct apbt to you? the adba standard, akc, ukc, etc? If I see another blue hippo being called a pit I think i may just pass out, if I see another APBT playing with a kitten, I may just pass out, If I see another 90lb pit, I may just pass out... those aren't what a real apbt is suppose to look like or act like. type differences would be like this...short and long haired St. Bernard as they have the same standard except for the hair length (if Im not mistaken). now what if you started seeing basset hound looking st bernards and GD looking saints and em, neo looking ones...are those just diff types? NO! they are mixes, nothing more and nothing less. they may be able to work like a saint but a saint they are not.

 

[aceoutdoor]

At least 2 types, several. And as Tiger said the CAFIB type is far from homogenous. Brasileirokid we should keep these discussions on a different board. This is a good place to inform newbies and potential buyers the tendencies and risks of the breed so they either stay away or choose wisely. Not a good place for the divide and passion that goes with it.

 

[dogman#1]

Ace, we had a HUGE and amicable discussion about this several months ago with Zero issues. CAFIB is not homogenous? please show me the different "types" of CAFIB please. and please dont post pics of puppies next to adults like others do. If you want I can show you the differences between bloodlines and such but those are not considered different types... ie, some bloodlines have more beautiful heads like Amparo others have stronger heads like ibituruna, some have larger type dogs and some smaller etc but always the proportions should be the same and always in balance with the overall size of the dog and always within the actual standard.

 

[mountainfila]

So whats the big deal with a pit playing with a kitten??? A real ADBA reg pit, not the other mix bred types you mentioned.

 

[chuckorlando]

Just dont get personal and theres nothing to fight over yea..... I love the DISCUSSION my self. Theres always good info that comes from it.

And if your lucky, you can confuse a few of these prospective owners that should'nt have any type

 

[mountainfila]

Ace, we had a HUGE and amicable discussion about this several months ago with Zero issues. CAFIB is not homogenous? please show me the different "types" of CAFIB please. and please dont post pics of puppies next to adults like others do. If you want I can show you the differences between bloodlines and such but those are not considered different types... ie, some bloodlines have more beautiful heads like Amparo others have stronger heads like ibituruna, some have larger type dogs and some smaller etc but always the proportions should be the same and always in balance with the overall size of the dog and always within the actual standard.

And to lock in that pretty head alot of inbreeding takes place which also goes hand in hand with health problems, not just filas but with any breed. I have looked at a quite a few cafib peds and see alot of very close almost to close breeding, not saying cbkc are any better but when you limit your gene pool it gets smaller and smaller till you got nothing left to breed to, just sayin.

 

[Tiger12490]

When you say bloodlines I say type.. there is only one APBT and I've owned Red boy/jocko dogs I know them and you can't say Redboy and chinaman look the same or tornado and queen of hearts did either .. there are more houndy ones and more terrier or more bulldog... look at Colby's dime... jeez that dog almost look like a parsons X...those presa and Cane aren't different breeds at all and to call them that is almost an abomination... in breeds with little scurtincy for phonetics there are going to be types....then you would have to say a lot of working and show dogs are different breeds because they have phonetic differences

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[dogman#1]

mountain, a real gamebred APBT playing with a kitten is like a full grown fila playing with a thieve who just broke into your home... nothing wrong with it for anti bsl commercials but if my fila did that it would be fixed immediately. <br>
<br>
mountain, YES! you are 100% correct. trying to lock in one specific trait can make you lose focus on the overall picture and WILL lead to health issues. there are plenty of CAFIB and Unifila bloodlines around that can be used as outcrosses w/o resulting to mixed breeding in order to correct a trait or health issues for vigor. no need to contaminate an entire gene pool for a short cut.<br>
<br>
Tiger, I agree 100% except we are using the word type to be 2 diff. things here. all bloodlines were created with the particulars breeder's idea of the best. ie as for the apbt... some thought a very hard mouth was the most important which led to a bigger head, some the most stamina which led to those whippet looking ones, now put in an American bully (blue hippo) in there (they were called apbts up until a few years ago and some still call them that) and now what? is that a type? NO! that is a mixed bred garbage mutt that cant walk down the street w/o gasping for air. This is the problem with the Fila today. we arent talking about slight variations ie ear set, we are talking about the FACT that they are not the same breed. like the example that i used before and the American bully.. the American Akita and the Akita Inu, these arent variations of the same breed they are mixed and their name had to be changed because no longer could the breeders fool the public anymore, they could no longer say they were the same breed because they were so insanely different it was almost disrespectful to tell someone that wasnt blind that they were the same. the fact that they finally acknowledge the fact (As many non CAFIB breeders have already done) and told how they acquired those traits was admirable but they havent changed the name yet and that is what is confusing new people today.

 

[dogman#1]

BTW I know some of you have heard this already but the CBKC has adopted an "APR" which is any dog exported out of Brazil has to undergo an evaluation first. This was put out to the CBKC by Roberto Sene from canil Sene Sena (SP?) (he is a CBKC breeder with ALOT of Alto Quatis dogs (a CAFIB bloodline). He did this because of all the crazy stuff that has been exported primarily to the U.S.A. CBKC is VERY aware of the mixed breeding infact the president of the CBKC and VP of FCI commented about how rampid it is within their registry for the fila brasileiro. SO although everyone in Brazil is aware of it and many of the breeders admitted to it, somehow, a few Breeders in the U.S.A. have managed to convince their costumers that they have a pure bred fila. I used this before but aI will use it again. if you bought a corvette and the guy who built your engine told you that he used a fiero's engine and the guy who put the car together told you that he used a corvette body kit and slapped it on to a junked plymouth reliant and chevrolet told you that it did happen will you still believe your car salesman that says it is a corvette? I mean I know you love the car and I know no one wants to feel like they got robbed but DAMN! the facts are there.

---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 AM ----------

oh, tiger what I mean by "type" would be like sight hounds, catch dogs, herders, guardians, etc...a type of dog not something to differentiate dogs with slightly different looks within its own breed.