Need advice from fila owners... Dogman, ChuckOrlando?

[OdeMX]

I got the chance to get a fila puppy, son of Thor from http://www.aimkennel.com/ male fawn (leonado), whats your opinion on that kennel? As I have said in many post, I dont need show dogs, just natural guards for my house.

Very good price (1/3rd of regular price), my concerns: Thor is black and the mother is black too, I remember at some point everyone agreed -on the 500post- that black didnt guaranted the right fila ojeriza?

Thanks for your advice.

 

[mountainfila]

Well my concerns would be , you said Thor is black? Thor is dark brindle but he isnt black, so if she is telling you that the father is black then the sire wouldnt be Thor maybe a son of Thor. And i dont think the 500 post thread said that about the ojeriza, i do believe it had more to do with the looks of a black fila not conforming to the standard. No one out there that breeds filas can guarantee that every single one of the offspring will have a true fila temp regardless of color. Color has no bearing on temp. You say leonado, is that the name of the pup or were you referring, to the color of fawn, which is dourado, not sure if i spelled it right dont have a pedigree in front of me lol.

As far as the kennel goes, i have known her for a very long time online and have not heard anything bad about her or her dogs, she shows her dogs and health tests. Her dogs are CBKC not cafib, so i am sure the cafib followers will not have good things to say about her dogs.

 

[OdeMX]

True, my bad, Thor is black and brindle.

 

[Tiger12490]

Jeez fila color debate again.... you won't know if you have a good fila until it acts like one... black is a color not a temperament assessment

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Tiger I agree 100%, I realy don't understand these "color wars" in any breed so long as it doesn't have any genetic defects or poor temprament.

Thor is very pretty though, how is the temprament?

 

[chuckorlando]

Well I know what Dogman will say. HAHAHAHAHA. If it looks like a fila, the parents look and act like a fila, then thats what it is in my opinion. That dont make that right. Kona's black as black gets and she is what we'll call a handfull. I've seen vids of alot of nice blacks. If I'm not mistaken thats the folks who just had a working weekend in Tn. I wanted to go but time just aint on my side this time of year. If so I have heard good things about her. I also heard she raises both cafib and non but again, I could be mistaken, misinformed, or wrong.

I dont have any issues with black filas expcept maybe the brasiliero verse american in the name. And that would hinge solely on if the blacks are created. I say check out the parents, see what kinda temp they got, maybe see if you can find some kin folk pups. But if it's cheap, I would just consider it adopting and just be happy with her.

 

[Tiger12490]

Yea Athena is a trip and a half I can only imagine what shed be like in brindle.....

Tapd on my skyrocket

 

[aceoutdoor]

CAFIB is wrong for not allowing black and dark brindles. CBKC is wrong for not allowing more white in other areas besides chest and paws. Black, dark brindles and dogs with much more white have been alive and well on different farms and in different regions of Brazil and have been for a long time. It will never end.

 

[angelbears]

The kennel Chuck is thinking of is sombra ultrajante. Aim was also in Tn., last I heard she is now in Tx. I was told that the rescue we have was sired by an aim male. She went after a backhoe today and didn't back down...she can be skittish with loud noises but rebounds quickly. Don't know what she has been through but she was in bad shape when she was found wandering the streets.

 

[chuckorlando]

sombra ultrajante has a great web site. And from reading, seems like a really good breeder. I have saved them

 

[dogman#1]

I have seen black dogs with good temperament but then again i have also seen labradors that want to rip you apart it doesnt make them filas. I posted a question about black filas in a cafib forum and 2 CAFIB judges answered... they said that if a black dog came in and it conformed to the CAFIB standard and its pups conformed to the CAFIB standard that they would approve it as a Fila Brasileiro. the problem they stated was that they have yet to see one. me looking at a dog, you looking at a dog and a judge looking at a dog will have 3 different outcomes and only one is correct and it wont be mine. The color is not accepted because it brings bad temp it is disqualified because of all the traits from other dogs it brings with it. lets take the harlequin color...why isnt that allowed? i mean if it has proper temp and it resembles a fila then it must be a fila...right? well to you and me it might look like a fila but once a judge starts picking it apart he/she will see signs of mixed breeding and it will be disqual'd...not a hatred of the color just the reality that that color is not in the gene pool of the breed. As far as the brindling goes...there is a standard on the brindling color and it must form the "V" on the back, it cannot be so heavily brindled that the stripes become blotches or "stains". imagine a dalmation with spots so big and close together that you get a black or almost black dalmation...the dog is still a dalmation but it is one that is out of standard... ie if you breed brindle to brindle you will get some dogs that become too heavily brindled.. it doesnt mean that the dog is mixed bred just that it does not conform to the standard. that doesnt mean that there arent those dogs that are heavily brindled and ALSO show signs of being mixed bred...those will be disqual'd on mixed breeding...

 

[slim12]

the black in the fila is believed to be the influx of mix breeding....the CAFIB standard does not allow the black dogs....i have never seen a black dog that conformed to the standard....one of the big falsities is that black dogs lack temperament....i had a black female that passed her temperament test @ 11 mos. and hardened from there....from my experiences most filas lack nerve...the ojeriza is more of a display than anything....most will engage and defend but if it is given back to them with a lot of pressure they will back up and re-group....they ae defense driven dogs...so when a black dog does what a large percentage of theother dogs also do it is one more reason to look down upon them....we staged a break-in in my house with her there in the front room and me "sleeping" in the back...my buddy suited up and "broke" in...she defended her home (and maybe me too) with ferocity and a viciousness that went to another level...he applied a lot of pressure to her....she got whacked on th emuzzle with the shakestick...whacked in the side....pushed around...but with every effort against her she ramped it up to be the one on top....it was amazing to see...she was from a kennel in New Mexico...guys name was Sam and she was out of a dog named Clyde but i have since lost contact....but she was black...and she is the only black dog i have ever seen that did not have a split upper lip...which is the tell-tale sign of mix breeding...the correct fila should have an uppside down U lip, not split or V'eed lip....she has a nice top line...bad stop...high ear set....she moved well...she was heavy boned...she was not as bad looking as most black dogs but she was black and she had a series of faults vs. the standard...she was a great dog just not a great fila....slim12

---------- Post added at 08:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 AM ----------

and the conformation stuff is really subjective...what i like and dislike may not be the same as the next guy...the standards are there but they are left to interpretation and preference...there was a CAFIB champion some years back on the CAFIB magazine cover...it was right after the CAFIB show in St. Louis maybe 2000 or 2001 ( a while back I know)...this bitch had been titled, her litter was approved and she was on the cover of the CAFIB magazine....but her lip was blatantly split...in CBKC it is a minor fault...in CAFIB it is an automatic disqualifier....so somewhere along the lines "subjectiveness" allowed this dog to rise to the top of the CAFIB charts but CafiB should have had her DQ'ed along the way....a CAFIB judge, and i forget his name told me that every judge should start at the lip and move to the rear of the dog....most dogs are done in somewhere between the lip, the stop and the ear set....a lot of the other stuff can be hidden if the handler can get him to move at certain speeds....slim12

 

[slim12]

and the conformation stuff is really subjective...what i like and dislike may not be the same as the next guy...the standards are there but they are left to interpretation and preference...there was a CAFIB champion some years back on the CAFIB magazine cover...it was right after the CAFIB show in St. Louis maybe 2000 or 2001 ( a while back I know)...this bitch had been titled, her litter was approved and she was on the cover of the CAFIB magazine....but her lip was blatantly split...in CBKC it is a minor fault...in CAFIB it is an automatic disqualifier....so somewhere along the lines "subjectiveness" allowed this dog to rise to the top of the CAFIB charts but CafiB should have had her DQ'ed along the way....a CAFIB judge, and i forget his name told me that every judge should start at the lip and move to the rear of the dog....most dogs are done in somewhere between the lip, the stop and the ear set....a lot of the other stuff can be hidden if the handler can get him to move at certain speeds....slim12

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

and the conformation stuff is really subjective...what i like and dislike may not be the same as the next guy...the standards are there but they are left to interpretation and preference...there was a CAFIB champion some years back on the CAFIB magazine cover...it was right after the CAFIB show in St. Louis maybe 2000 or 2001 ( a while back I know)...this bitch had been titled, her litter was approved and she was on the cover of the CAFIB magazine....but her lip was blatantly split...in CBKC it is a minor fault...in CAFIB it is an automatic disqualifier....so somewhere along the lines "subjectiveness" allowed this dog to rise to the top of the CAFIB charts but CafiB should have had her DQ'ed along the way....a CAFIB judge, and i forget his name told me that every judge should start at the lip and move to the rear of the dog....most dogs are done in somewhere between the lip, the stop and the ear set....a lot of the other stuff can be hidden if the handler can get him to move at certain speeds....slim12

So agree here!

 

[chuckorlando]

I dont think anyone disagrees with the CAFIB standard. It's a matter of subscribing to the cafib standard. I also dont think anyone thats been here a while would disagree with mixed breeding at some point in ALOT of dogs. And from your above discription one could conclude this mixed breeding extends into the cafib. Just like no one would disagree that neo's, and pitts, and, and, and, and, have been mixed up at some point.

It becomes a matter of subscription to theory. Does one believe what cafib preaches? Does one believe that the evolution is to far gone and it is what it is? Or does one just simply not care what anyone has to say?

If ones dog dont fit a cafib standard, what that means in reality, depends completely on how one feels about that standard to begin with.

 

[kshymkiw]

I dont think anyone disagrees with the CAFIB standard. It's a matter of subscribing to the cafib standard. I also dont think anyone thats been here a while would disagree with mixed breeding at some point in ALOT of dogs. And from your above discription one could conclude this mixed breeding extends into the cafib. Just like no one would disagree that neo's, and pitts, and, and, and, and, have been mixed up at some point.

It becomes a matter of subscription to theory. Does one believe what cafib preaches? Does one believe that the evolution is to far gone and it is what it is? Or does one just simply not care what anyone has to say?

If ones dog dont fit a cafib standard, what that means in reality, depends completely on how one feels about that standard to begin with.

The differences between CAFIB and CBKC/FCI are pretty small/minor. Honestly, looking at these dogs for years before I bought one, the CAFIB people seem hard up on saying CAFIB is the only way, while the CBKC/FCI people are just mellow about it.

Honestly, I don't care much about CAFIB/CBKC/FCI. I just know I got the worst attitude from the CAFIB crowd when asking questions about Fila's.

 

[chuckorlando]

Alot of cafib folks can be like that from forum reading. But the ckbc folks will egg the fight on all the same. They just tend to use bait tricks verse straight up name calling. hahahahaha. I truely dont think either side will ever win and a better solution is just a devide and a tightening of the belt in both camps. It aint gonna happen but it should. Fila brasiliero and American Fila if you will.

But truth be told, I dont care one way or the other. Kona aint no cafib but she's a Fila all the same to me. But I also respect Juans opinion that she aint. Neither of us have nothing to prove to the other as we both know the others opinion. So aint nothing for us to fight over.

 

[kshymkiw]

Alot of cafib folks can be like that from forum reading. But the ckbc folks will egg the fight on all the same. They just tend to use bait tricks verse straight up name calling. hahahahaha. I truely dont think either side will ever win and a better solution is just a devide and a tightening of the belt in both camps. It aint gonna happen but it should. Fila brasiliero and American Fila if you will.

But truth be told, I dont care one way or the other. Kona aint no cafib but she's a Fila all the same to me. But I also respect Juans opinion that she aint. Neither of us have nothing to prove to the other as we both know the others opinion. So aint nothing for us to fight over.

That is how I feel. Regardless I know the dog I am getting is a Fila, and I grateful just be able to own such an amazing dog. I don't plan on showing him, nor breeding him.

When it comes to the CAFIB vs CBKC, FCI has chosen CBKC to be it's official registry, for better or worse. CBKC is also the official registry of Brazil. There is obviously a reason for why CBKC is the official registry. From my reading, I believe the CAFIB didn't exist until the 1970's?

 

[dogman#1]

KSH...wrong. CAFIB is/was recognized before cbkc as the official holder of stud books (Registry)for the fila Brasileiro breed by the ministry of argriculture of brazil. CAFIB at one point was the ONLY official registry for Brazil for the Fila... bet you didnt hear that bit of truth from from the none CAFIB folks. The person who wrote the standard for cbckc later turned around and said thast he did not know enough about the fila at the time and he is the one who came up with CAFIB after several more years of studying the breed. Remember CAFIB is an organization for the preservation of the breed not the organization to become famous and make money of the dogs... once you get in deep with filas you will notice a HUGE difference between the 2. not only on the way they look but the way that the different kennels conduct themselves...2 different worlds of people with 2 very distinct breeds.

 

[kshymkiw]

KSH...wrong. CAFIB is/was recognized before cbkc as the official holder of stud books (Registry)for the fila Brasileiro breed by the ministry of argriculture of brazil. CAFIB at one point was the ONLY official registry for Brazil for the Fila... bet you didnt hear that bit of truth from from the none CAFIB folks. The person who wrote the standard for cbckc later turned around and said thast he did not know enough about the fila at the time and he is the one who came up with CAFIB after several more years of studying the breed. Remember CAFIB is an organization for the preservation of the breed not the organization to become famous and make money of the dogs... once you get in deep with filas you will notice a HUGE difference between the 2. not only on the way they look but the way that the different kennels conduct themselves...2 different worlds of people with 2 very distinct breeds.

I am not here to argue, but even on the CAFIB website it says "In 2012 the CAFIB celebrates 35 years of working for the Fila Brasileiro."

If the CAFIB group group feels they have a legitimate complaint, why don't they step up to the FCI, and ask them the recognize CAFIB as the Brazilian Registry, instead of CBKC?