Linebreeding, Inbreeding, and breeding ethics

[Browniebits]

I would like to start a discussion. My breeder and I disagree on this, and I would like some opinions on this

 

[TWW]

It's fine with the proper testing, but I know of 2 lines that brag about there dogs and they look like hell, due to inline breeding.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Line breeding and inbreeding is basically what created the different breeds in the first place. It can absolutely be taken to far, resulting in not only physical abnormalities but also serious health problems, but in general its why we have the dogs we have today.

 

[cayeesmom]

My Newfie was the result of a inbreeding, mother and son. It was not an intentional breeding! All the females in the litter had to be put down due to birth defects, no "wall" between the urethra and vagina. One female could possibly be saved by surgery but no guaranty she would not leak. The males were fine. [ Now have to say this was responsible owners, had home lined up before the litter was on the ground, disclosed that it was a inbreeding, thorough vet exams several times before the pups left, and the pups were free. ]

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

There are pros and cons to all types of breeding.

Out-crosses bring in all new genetics, which all lines need at some point but you also have no idea how they will blend with your current lines and what the out-come or problems might be brought in with the new lines that were hidden until they are matched to yours.

Line-breeding is picking one line/ancestor (usually grand-daughter to grandfather and uncle/aunt to niece/nephew) that has the desired genetics that you like and crossing them with dogs you have that share that ancestor in the hopes of solidifying the the genetics tightly in your lines.

Inbreeding is crossing closely related dogs (father to daughter, mother to son, full siblings), in the hopes that by crossing closely related dogs the gather all the best genetics and can eliminate the bad. It can be good to get all the best genetics but it is also bad in the way you also pull the worst of everything in. If you have some underlying issues it can be the way to eliminate them to avoid carrying them forward and popping up every other generation.

Personally I think all breeding types have merit based on what you are trying to achieve but inbreeding is something that I think you need years (and I mean years) of experience working your lines before doing it but that is a personal opinion, there are lots of breeders with enough experience (or they believe so anyway) doing it.

What is it that you and your breeder disagree with in regards to these types of breeding?

 

[Browniebits]

Basically you nailed it. The difference between linebreeding and inbreeding. I was going to try to get a female in a couple years, with the possibility of breeding them in another couple of years, when both dogs are adults and bring something worth passsing on to their gene pool. I was offered a female puppy from a future litter of the mother of my male, but with a different sire. I admit to knowing nothing about linebreeding at this stage of the game, but to me, that just sounds too close. I may be wrong, but that wasn't ideal for me. He got offended when I suggested it sounded offbeat.. Now, maybe I'm just bringing human morals and ideas to the table when it comes to dog breeding, but I just was hesitant to blindly agree to it. I was wondering what the consensus was as a majority before I decided yeah our neigh

 

[ruthcatrin]

My personal opinion: that sort of inbreeding decision should only be made after both dogs are adults and it can be determined that doing that sort of close breeding will be to the benefit of the breed. I don't think thats a decision that can be made till both dogs are mature enough to show what they really are, much less before one is even born. Actually I think thats the case regardless of in-, line-, or out-, breeding honestly, but its especially true when when you're talking about that sort of "condensing" of the genes involved.

 

[gamestaff]

inbreeding and linebreeding are unsuitable for any specimens short of high quality. these types of programs are the concentration of like traits. any genetic conditions that exist but may not have manifest themselves in specific specimens can be become obvious when concentrated in a litter between two dogs with like conditions (good and bad). close inbreeding can be a way to "make obvious" any under-lying conditions in a line. out-crossing, while unlikely to concentrate negative characteristics creates more of a lottery style litter as far as traits as there is less genetic commonalities thus making it less likely to concentrate good traits either.
linebreeding and inbreeding are used to preserve characteristics in a pedigree and decrease inconsistencies in the offspring.
many / most programs are unsuitable for these types of breeding because most breeders give little consideration for anything beyond the like or love of a particular parent dog.
these breeding practices are practical for long-term generational programs as suitablility culls will need to be made to maintain the integrity of the programs and to objectively deal with the unavoidable manifestation of negative traits. every line of dogs has problems. inbreeding and linebreeding become problematic when breeders are unable to be objective enough to not breed or to cull a dog because of traits that should not be passed on. outcrossing does nothing to deal with these traits, it just passes those traits on for someone else to deal with.

 

[Browniebits]

Does that mean I am right to be concerned about this type of breeding then?

 

[gamestaff]

if you think the dam of your dog is a great specimen and has no genetic issues and you want to create a litter of pups that are largely consistent with the qualities she has and those that are common (if any) in her pedigree, it is a great idea. the different sires contribution become significantly less relevant. if she is not worthy of having her genes concentrated, than it is a poor idea.

 

[mountainfila]

Line breeding is a name given to make breeders feel better about inbreeding, no matter how you want to look at its inbreeding all the way, your breeding 2 dogs with the same dna. Call me crazy but that's the way I perceive line breeding / in breeding.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Line-breeding is a form of inbreeding but I don't think it is separate to make them feel better, I think it was to help people understand the differences a little more easily. I don't know many breeders that are ashamed of line-breeding/inbreeding, they do what they do to further their program and don't apologize for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Shon]

Line-breeding, inbreeding and out-crossing are all necessary in every working breed. The truth of the matter is that the ones who do not understand that should not be breeding dogs in the first place. If it is not a working breed (or dogs without true working lineage), it is fairly senseless to be concerned with any of the above, as in my opinion, you may as well be breeding your dog with a poodle.

Line-breeding and inbreeding are both highly useful for passing family traits (both good and bad) on to offspring. Out-crossing becomes useful when desired traits, outside of their gene pool, are wished to be added.

I don't believe anyone who doesn't already understand the necessities of each should be breeding dogs at all, but I will attempt to break down the difference of each in the most simple terms I can, without going into extreme detail:

Inbreeding (brother to sister, father to daughter, son to mother): Each instance of inbreeding is different, but it is always used to intensify the traits and genes of the dogs being bred. This type of breeding will dramatically increase all genetic traits, both good and bad.

Line-breeding is similar to inbreeding, but instead of breeding siblings or parent to offspring, it is breeding within a family of dogs, either based on a specific ancestor or a specific group of ancestors. This type of breeding will, at times, increase genetic traits (depending upon the specific dogs), but will mostly pass similar family traits on to the offspring.

Out-crossing is typically used to bring other desired traits into a line of dogs. It is also necessary (with extremely tightly bred dogs or breeds in their infancy) to expand the gene pool for many different reasons.
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[Shon]

inbreeding and linebreeding are unsuitable for any specimens short of high quality. these types of programs are the concentration of like traits. any genetic conditions that exist but may not have manifest themselves in specific specimens can be become obvious when concentrated in a litter between two dogs with like conditions (good and bad). close inbreeding can be a way to "make obvious" any under-lying conditions in a line. out-crossing, while unlikely to concentrate negative characteristics creates more of a lottery style litter as far as traits as there is less genetic commonalities thus making it less likely to concentrate good traits either.
linebreeding and inbreeding are used to preserve characteristics in a pedigree and decrease inconsistencies in the offspring.
many / most programs are unsuitable for these types of breeding because most breeders give little consideration for anything beyond the like or love of a particular parent dog.
these breeding practices are practical for long-term generational programs as suitablility culls will need to be made to maintain the integrity of the programs and to objectively deal with the unavoidable manifestation of negative traits. every line of dogs has problems. inbreeding and linebreeding become problematic when breeders are unable to be objective enough to not breed or to cull a dog because of traits that should not be passed on. outcrossing does nothing to deal with these traits, it just passes those traits on for someone else to deal with.

I just absolutely have to add that I completely agree with you.

 

[wheelsonmeals]

Hey I'm new to the forum, and this seems pretty close to some topics I'd like to cover. Specifically dealing with ethics, outcrossing, and line breeding. And before I start would like to give a shout out to the people that do put in the due diligence and work and cull their dogs.

I don't know about y'all but I've seen several articles talking about the collapse of the mastiff breeds. Since the invention of kennel clubs we've seen a decline in the functionality of virtually every breed, especially associated with mastiffs.

Does anyone think that taking a more traditional breeding approach to these dogs is the ethical way to proceed in the future? It seems that in the last hundred years people have been trying there best to undo the previous couple centuries worth of work that created these dogs. Not only has it led to health and temperament problems, it's a major slap in the face to all the people who developed these breeds in the first place.

No breed of dog is perfect, but some are working on being completely shot out. Show bred Neo's are just sad, Great danes are getting frail, the DDB bite and athleticism are getting worse constantly, and the OEM just like most of the others listed have poor dispositions as a true guard dog. Strict line and inbreeding have left them deficient in one manner or the other.


I propose in so many word taking from the best health and work tested representatives of each breed,hybridizing and letting the science begin. Science meaning Test hard, Cull Harder!

Combos like:

DDBxDogo.The Dogue de Bordeaux was used when creating the Dogo Argentino, at this point the Dogo could help recreate/ save the DDB as a breed. Maybe even a dash of American bulldog (they're developed from small mastiffs).

The Neos, Cane, and Presas all were interbred for a long time and would be a logical bunch to cross and select from again.

I think Between the Tosa Boerboel Fila Great Dane and OEM one could eventually remake a kick ass all around working mastiff with all the necessary ingredients.

We've seen where exclusive in/line breeding takes us and what it gives us. It gives us greater consistency and flaws, leading to even more extreme versions of the former. If you're not making outcrosses testing and culling then how do you know you aren't on a plateau headed for the other side?

 

[WalnutCrest]

Mealsonwheels --- this thread is not about creating crossbred dogs; that's a whole other subject.

To the OP --- half-brother to half-sister is NOT too close IF (as noted above) the dogs are of the very highest quality AND come from dogs of the very highest quality. If your breeder (who, presumably, has lots more experience than you) says it'll be ok, then keep an open mind (especially if your breeder has been at this for quite a long time AND is generally respected in the broader breed community as someone who knows what they're doing). One of our nicest heifer calves is the result of a father-daughter breeding ... and ... father-daughter breedings happen all the time in nature (think about how many wolves and lions breed their daughters, for two examples).

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I agree, this topic was in regards to types of breeding. Please start another thread so that your topic does not get lost in this post and will make anyone looking to respond more apt to find it easily.

Mealsonwheels --- this thread is not about creating crossbred dogs; that's a whole other subject.

To the OP --- half-brother to half-sister is NOT too close IF (as noted above) the dogs are of the very highest quality AND come from dogs of the very highest quality. If your breeder (who, presumably, has lots more experience than you) says it'll be ok, then keep an open mind (especially if your breeder has been at this for quite a long time AND is generally respected in the broader breed community as someone who knows what they're doing). One of our nicest heifer calves is the result of a father-daughter breeding ... and ... father-daughter breedings happen all the time in nature (think about how many wolves and lions breed their daughters, for two examples).

 

[wheelsonmeals]

Sorry I thought breeding ethics was for open discussion on a broader scale, it seemed like the original question pertaining to the post was answered throughly.I'll start a new thread.