I'm going to get a professional behaviorist.

[Doggyhelpplease]

I agree with positive training methods as I myself like to go that route. I don't like to give corrections and I don't just freely correct my dog so he can learn something quicker. If you've seen a lot of my videos, they are mostly done without a leash so I really have no control of the outcome. I am very curious of the positive training methods on a dog that is not easily motivated because of this strong independent mindset. I am not judging you either.

My guess would be to make Athena think the idea is hers and she will follow it without being physically made to (for it actually to stick). I did this with the front door easy but obvious that is way easier to control. When she was younger but not super young she wanted to see who is at the door with me and she was excited if it was my friend but wouldn't jump but they need to be able to walk in the door. I wanted her to stay in a sit till I could let the person in (she isn't that way if we aren't home etc but if I am actually answering the door after a bell ring). So what did I do? Well holding her back or making her sit on leash, yes I tried hold her but she got more excited, telling her to stay and keep at it just made me a parrot so instead Everytime her bum lifted off the floor, I slammed the door on my friends face till she could actually hold the sit. Eventually, she was like OMG, I have an idea mommy, I will sit there till they get in the door and then greet them and so she does still. I didn't touch her at all when teaching her this...I was just like oh you wanna get up...well no MAY (thats my friends name). It would need to be a really creative way to make her think it was her decision in your walking scenario though and when you find a way share it .

She thinks she is stubborn but she met her match...I once waited 43mins (much younger than now) for her to complete the lay I wanted her to do before we took a step further...I didn't force her (or holder her super tight on the leash) and I didn't keep repeating it every min, I told her and stood there. She finally sighed and did it and looked up at me. I have had trainers say force her to sit and you can pull up on the halti and she fights it but you can use the leverage and force it but what does that do? Well with my passed GS that would make it listen cause you are going to force it to do it anyways but with my TM it worked better just to say it (she loves to move forward and she wouldn't get too till she did what I wanted). She is pretty fast at sitting now don't get me wrong but we had stubborn times before but I just kinda get what Broc is saying.

I know if I block my dogs view of something she is "on duty" checking out or heavily restraint her, she will act up more than if I didn't but if I let her see from a distance and she can just look she will act like Athena and stand and watch. When I get right in front of her when she thinks there may be danger its almost a panic, I gotta look around her OMG. It makes me lol to think about how she tries so hard to look around me. I am fine with her looking, I just keep on walking forward with her halti and tell her "nevermind" or "its fine" once and she has no choice but to follow and I zombie away (spin or march on forward) but if she is walking right towards and than pull back last second and she is too excited it make her act worse. They don't care what you think at times but there is a respect and a bound as you can see how she will actually be okay with a nevermind or lets go, if my husband or I hold the leash but with someone else that she knows well holding the leash she does not continue to follow on the leash for them if she thinks there may be something she should check out.

Sorry for my rambles I am just trying to think of something creative.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yes, I like your videos.

Oh, another thing I just thought of.

I have a prong collar for her and I love it. She walks great on it.

When we've tried it in places with other dogs it didn't go so well. When she moved toward another dog and the collar tightened, her aggression level shot way up. I've read that one of the dangers of using prongs or shock collars is that they might blame the other dog or cat or whatever they are trying to get for the pain. And that can make things worse.

I've been wondering if I didn't spend enough time using the collar in areas where there were no other dogs. So she could learn that the collar tightened in response to her actions.

If the behaviorist doesn't work out, maybe I'll go back to basics with that.

Certinally possible anyway, definetly a thought to keep in mind anyway

 

[ruthcatrin]

And yah, trying to physically block their view of something they've locked in on only makes them go more berserk, I get much better (in general anyway) results by using a "I see it and its not a threat" type techniques, or sometimes "I see it and so we're not going to go there", and letting them sit and watch whatever the "threat" is will almost always make them happy

 

[Cyndnelson]

Ok, I think I've read most of this thread, but I can't remember seeing when you will actually see the behaviourist. I'm really interested in how it goes.

And whoever posted the Good Dog video - thank you! We use a prong collar on Caesar, but I see we haven't been doing it entirely correctly. We were about 75% right.

And if I could say to all those people who continually insist that the handler's confidence/tension is all that is needed to correct a behaviour, as the video suggests, just because you have a calm, assertive handler (the Good Dog guy) doesn't automatically mean the dog is going to be well behaved. Correction is still needed and what broccolini (and I) are looking for is that outside perspective to see things that you can't see because you are too close to the situation.

Please keep us posted! I have a similar issue with Caesar, but it isn't aggressive lunging - I believe his is fear lunging. Good for you for seeking out professional help. THAT is what a responsible owner does.

 

[Hector]

Yes, I like your videos.

Oh, another thing I just thought of.

I have a prong collar for her and I love it. She walks great on it.

When we've tried it in places with other dogs it didn't go so well. When she moved toward another dog and the collar tightened, her aggression level shot way up. I've read that one of the dangers of using prongs or shock collars is that they might blame the other dog or cat or whatever they are trying to get for the pain. And that can make things worse.

I've been wondering if I didn't spend enough time using the collar in areas where there were no other dogs. So she could learn that the collar tightened in response to her actions.

If the behaviorist doesn't work out, maybe I'll go back to basics with that.

Broc, when is this meeting session scheduled for? It's always good to hear from a third party and try out new things. I was just throwing ideas out there. I feel like if the prong collar made her aggression worse, it may have already been a reinforced reaction to pressure around the neck with other collars. Since the prong collar is capable of applying a stronger sensation without much force from the handler, this causes her explode to another level. Does she have the same reaction with regular collars?

There was another good dog video where the dog had reactivity issues and the prong collar made it worse, so they stuck with the head collar. I want to say the head collar is the only tool that works on my shepherd. I don't know if he is super hard and doesn't care for corrections or he has been desensitized around the neck. He has a bad habit of pulling intensely to mark a post or a bush so the head collar and traffic lead combo keeps his head close to my side and he works hard to keep the pressure off (as in walks nicely).

Another question I'm curious about is do you think TMs switch mindsets once they leave their territory (house/yard) and the handlers suddenly become "livestock" and so an approaching dog head on is a serious threat?

Here is the video

[video=youtube;vfiDe0GNnLQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfiDe0GNnLQ[/video]

 

[ruthcatrin]

Another question I'm curious about is do you think TMs switch mindsets once they leave their territory (house/yard) and the handlers suddenly become "livestock" and so an approaching dog head on is a serious threat?

I was trying to explain this to someone else, and I'm not sure how successful I was, but heres my observations based on Apollo and input from other TM and LGD owners.

When at home, especially in the house, but in general when on the home property, the TM guards the property line. TMs as a breed tend to be especially proactive about it, so even kinda approaching the property line will get a response (if only supervision, depending on what you are). But the property line seems to give them a defined line to keep the potential threats away from.

When off the property there is no defined line. Anything within range (which varies depending on the location and the dog) has to be evaluated for threat. And if threat is seen it has to be stopped as from from their charge (in this case their owner) as possible.

A TM bonds with his charges, be it his owners or his owners flock/herds. And among the breeds used as LGDs the TM tends to be highly proactive. When herd guarding this means they tend to range from the herd to check the fence lines. And it means they're far more likely to take actual action to remove a threat than say, the white dogs (such as the Pyr, or Maremma) who are more likely to stay with their herd and will seriously attempt to warn off before defending.

 

[Hector]

I was trying to explain this to someone else, and I'm not sure how successful I was, but heres my observations based on Apollo and input from other TM and LGD owners.

When at home, especially in the house, but in general when on the home property, the TM guards the property line. TMs as a breed tend to be especially proactive about it, so even kinda approaching the property line will get a response (if only supervision, depending on what you are). But the property line seems to give them a defined line to keep the potential threats away from.

When off the property there is no defined line. Anything within range (which varies depending on the location and the dog) has to be evaluated for threat. And if threat is seen it has to be stopped as from from their charge (in this case their owner) as possible.

A TM bonds with his charges, be it his owners or his owners flock/herds. And among the breeds used as LGDs the TM tends to be highly proactive. When herd guarding this means they tend to range from the herd to check the fence lines. And it means they're far more likely to take actual action to remove a threat than say, the white dogs (such as the Pyr, or Maremma) who are more likely to stay with their herd and will seriously attempt to warn off before defending.

How does one go about telling their TM it's okay? I mean I don't know how to tell my dog it's okay unless I tell them to leave it or NO and that's different from telling them it's okay.

 

[broccolini]

Yes, Hector. She definately views her people as her livestock.

As for teaching her 'okay', whenever she barks at the window, I go and see what the issue is. It's usually nothing. Then I tell her okay and physically move her away. After a ton of repetition, she got the point. If she thinks I'm wrong and it's not 'okay', she'll still back off the window but she won't stop barking.

 

[ruthcatrin]

How does one go about telling their TM it's okay? I mean I don't know how to tell my dog it's okay unless I tell them to leave it or NO and that's different from telling them it's okay.

At home, I can usually tell Apollo "I see it, its a *****, its ok" and IN GENERAL he'll stop barking and either just observe or back off. He'll sometimes refuse to take my word for it though. We had a cat in our front ditch last night. I finally put the prong nd short leash on him and took him out to run off th cat. Cause he wouldn't settle and the damn thing was ignoring the barking. He responds REALLY well to "you scared it off!! You're such a good boy!!"

Off the property its both easier and harder. Easier because Apollo has a pretty high threshold, so it takes alot to actually trigger THREAT when he's not defending the property line. Harder, because if he DOES decide threat I'm probly not changing his mind. Thankfully the few such instances the idiot took one look at the growling snarling dog as big as me and decided they'd go in a different direction.

 

[Catia]

I respectfully agree to disagree...I've seen it done with "your" breed. What you call "harsh" others would call humane, because the alternative can very well be euthanasia if you can't control your dog and it hurts someone or another dog. Why even post if your gonna have a closed mind and shut out suggestions from experienced people?

Ahhh...oh well...I am now blue in the face. I do wish the best of luck anyway. Especially if I'm ever in the vicinity with my dogs. My mother and brother live in WA...

Wow, just wow
At no point was her mind closed--The entire point of her posts has been to get ideas.

I've kept my mouth shut, because I didn't want to get flamed by you because I disagree with your harsh treatments also ***AT THIS POINT*** in the game.
Because there is not an out of control dog, there is a dog who behaves like a TM-- fact is, a TM trains differently.
Redirection in your world as a trainer is light years different with a TM.

Now that I've experienced it directly, I KNOW it to be true.--And I'm saying that & I've got a SOFT girl.

I also want to say, I see other more independent &/or primitive breeds that are more popular, like malamutes/husky/great Pyr--and while they may be
'closer' in behavior to a TM, it's still not in the same league, it is only slightly similar. A TM has got a more primitive thing going on. 30,000 yrs difference in genetics makes for a dog that doesn't work the same way as the others.
Redirection is 'challenging' for those breeds I mentioned--but much more difficult with a TM, because when they are focused, just try to find something of higher value to them than what they are focused on...
When that is happening, in Broccolini's case specifically, I do not believe a harsh correction is the answer. There is a trust thing that happens with this breed.
They get all weird if something is too harsh, & they do NOT EVER forget. It can take a LOT of time to 'get your dog back' if the correction is too harsh. They lose trust.
I trust Broccolini knows where her limit is, because she mentioned it. This is something that must be taken into consideration.

Since this behavior has been occurring since she was 10 wks old, IMHO, it is something that can be figured out how to manage, but it will always be there under the surface. This is how she is wired.

I agree with the behaviorist aspect, but would have more faith if it were someone who has worked with TM's successfully, & more than just one.
I'd even agree with a trainer if they had multiple TM experience.
The only reason I say this is because Broc's pooch isn't likely to behave the same way or show the same signs when the behaviorist is present.
TM's hide/mask things to a higher degree than I've seen with any pooch. This leads to a LOT LOT LOT of trying to explain something that the behaviorist is likely to never see, & as a result, may not believe.
This can also lead to the pooch figuring out exactly WHAT behaviors are necessary at the behavioralist/trainer--they are performing because they anticipated what that situation needed.

My experience is this: a training exercise for a TM is just that--an exercise--they can & will learn it & know it-the may even enjoy that time a lot-
The bigger issue is, you can never trust they will carry it out in a real world application like other dogs do.
They don't have the same 'genetic switch' that can be turned on/off when their instincts are kicked in.
Other dogs have it due to the 30,000 yrs extra spans of breeding for people specific characteristics.

TM's have an intelligence & insight that is almost 'savant'-like. But getting them to change a behavior on command is another issue, even if very well trained.
If I had to liken a TM to a human type--I'd say a TM is the Aspergers type--like the movie "Rainman" doing crazy calculations & wild displays at genius--but having no cut off for Judge Judy time...I don't believe they have the same wiring of the less primitive pooches neurologically, so cues from humans aren't responded to the same as other pooches, it just makes sense considering the genetic gap.
Primitive means primitive.
Developmentally & behaviorally, this carries weight. So training methods that may work for other breeds are NOT a sure thing for a primitive breed.

Can some TM's be trained & respond like a Labrador? Sure, there may be a select few, there are always exceptions, but it is not the rule.
I'm sure someone somewhere even has a fila that loves strangers...maybe even a fila therapy dog???
And the person who has that fila therapy dog isn't ever gonna believe you can't train your fila to be the same way if you just took the time...

Tessa had specific behaviors when I got her, at 11 weeks. No amount of handling/desensitizing/redirection has changed them. & I was completely obsessive about working on these behaviors, because I knew she would be big & she is stubborn. She allowed me this grace period with resistance, & some tolerance, til she was about 75lbs. You'd think I never took the time.

You're on the right track Broccolini & your instincts are correct.
Those of us who have TM's ARE listening-And we support you-because we KNOW there's a difference & are ALL EARS for finding ways that make things work in a TM's mind.
And, I seriously doubt the issue is just you, I think it's just the TM aspect & you'll find a workable way to manage it.

 

[broccolini]

Thanks, Catia.

Athena has more of an edge to her than any of the other TMs I've met. I guess I'm just lucky.

D'Argo continues to be a complete sap. I feel like he's super clingy and he loves us so much but I think anybody else would still think he didn't like us much. He actually follows us around a bit and once in a while will give me a kiss. It's so weird.

I feel honored when Athena lays near me or rolls over for a belly rub.

I have an appointment with the behaviorist Thursday morining. I too, would have preferred someone with more TM experience but I felt lucky to find someone that had worked with even one.

 

[ruthcatrin]

D'Argo continues to be a complete sap. I feel like he's super clingy and he loves us so much but I think anybody else would still think he didn't like us much. He actually follows us around a bit and once in a while will give me a kiss. It's so weird.

Thats about where Apollo was at that age actually, sounds like you've got two ends of the spectrum there!

 

[Catia]

Tessa gives the occasional "ear nibbles" instead of kisses.
She actually nuzzles my ear & nibbles my earlobe so lightly.
It comes out of nowhere, usually if I am sitting in my computer chair.
I am amazed at the control she has over her teeth considering she has those chops.
I am also thankful she is not a big drooler--usually it's a dry nibble.

I think I may be sometimes confusing her being territorial with her being affectionate...
I started to believe she was snuggling at bedtime-but what this is really amounting to is that she is laying against me so the cats cannot.
But I'll take that 'affection' any way I can get it, cuz that 1st few months I wasn't sure she liked me at all lol!!!

 

[Siloh]

Okay, I'm super curious.

Does giving TMs a defined job assist in molding their guardian behavior? Like if I had sheep or something for instance and the dog was supposed to guard the flock, could I mold the guarding behavior at all by sort of defining the TM's role, or is it all instinct? Does giving a TM such a job affect any other aspects of behavior, like guarding humans too?


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[looby73]

She's been to puppy class and acted fine. We also took her to a handling class with lots of other dogs. She was fine with that too. It's like in a group of dogs, she doesn't have any issues. And once she's done posturing as long as the other dog is submissive, she's okay with them one on one too.

I'm working my way through this thread but just wanted to respond to this particular post as I read it.
This sounds very much like our 2 year old TM Zeus. In groups of dogs, like at classes and at shows, he's pretty much fine. It's the one on one dog on the street that he seems to have the issue with. It's almost like he 'wants to get in there first' and does all his posturing and grumbling when he sees them. Then, most of the time, once the other dog has responded in a non-threatening manner, he's fine. And if the other dog is small but 'aggressive' he doesn't give a shit, just looks at it as if to say 'yeah, what are you going to do then'!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Okay, I'm super curious.

Does giving TMs a defined job assist in molding their guardian behavior? Like if I had sheep or something for instance and the dog was supposed to guard the flock, could I mold the guarding behavior at all by sort of defining the TM's role, or is it all instinct? Does giving a TM such a job affect any other aspects of behavior, like guarding humans too?

Speaking from theory and input of others here, since I don't have livestock. But the TM would still guard the property line as much as specifically guarding the flock, just because thats how they guard. Not sure about taking them out, but they're going to bond at least SOME with their owner unless you're totally hands off (don't do hands off, your TM could be come dangerous to you), so they're going to guard you at least some. Having said that stock guardians in general tend to get really stressed when removed from their flocks......(there's discussion that the TM should be more properly styled a LGD who guards their owners, and owners property whatever it is and it probly is more accurate)

But you HAVE to give these dogs something to guard. Catia's Tessa might be the exception due to her being a crossbred, but even there she's still young enough that the guardian might pop through later (and even there, Catia's seen some guarding behavior for sure, just not as much as the rest of us see). If you don't give them something to guard they'll FIND something to guard, and then potentially attempt to guard it from you when you come to take it from them. Most house-old TMs are perfectly happy guarding their owner, owner's family, and owner's property. I know of one breeder who has "given" litters of kittens to her elderly dogs so that they have something they can guard without as much effort.

 

[Siloh]

This breed is fascinating... Thanks for your input, Ruth. Seriously don't think we'll ever get a LGD. >.< Y'all are scaring me away!


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[ruthcatrin]

They're awesome dogs, but they really do take the right mindset to own and manage!

 

[Siloh]

They're awesome dogs, but they really do take the right mindset to own and manage!

Hmm... The right mindset... *stares at liquor cabinet* Gotcha.

Let us know if you make an appointment with the behaviorist and for when! I'm curious how it will go. She sounds ridiculously qualified, even if the breed is a real toughie.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[elastigirl]

I'm not sure the crating technique would work. I'm pretty sure you'd just end up with a sulking TM. But I'd not be adverse to trying it were it my dog. I HAVE used my body as an interrupter on occasion, and it CAN work well, depending on the situation.

This is what I was thinking. Bear in mind I am by far the LEAST experienced TM owner on here so I only know Ivy and what her mama's owner has told me. We had issues with resource guarding starting about 10 weeks. Stuff like regurgitated food. We have been watching and trying to be proactive about preventing it (drive-by treat dropping when she has a high value item, all feeding done by hand for work, trading chew toy for a nice juice piece of chicken and then give chew toy back excitedly, etc). Well, one day in the yard Ivy got hold of my son's sock. She was trying to eat it and there was no time to run to the house for chicken, so my husband went to retrieve the sock. In the process of pulling the sock halfway out of her throat, she threw a major hissy fit, growled, snarled and finally bit him pretty well on his thumb. On the advice of our trainer (not the 'dragging' trainer, her puppy class trainer who uses only positive methods) we gave her the 'silent treatment' for a day ... no talking to her, no petting, we were all business when we took her out and fed her. Within half a day she was a wreck. Really, distraught. I kept it going til that night and in the morning we went back to normal - I just couldn't take it and neither could she. She was miffed for the whole next day. That said, Ivy is definitely a softer temperament. But crating for a day or two - yeah, I think she'd just get really, really upset with us and might make her less inclined to engage, rather than more.