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I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Farts like a lady for now....lol
All that matters is that you love her. It sounds like she has a wonderful life, what could be better!
 

Kandie

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Duchess is a cute girl and I love her name :)
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Guess I need to go read the "why BYB's are bad" thread...
Our pup is from a BYB, and I'm quite happy about it. While her color is not to perfect AKC standards (face not black enough, brindle stripes too far apart), she looks perfect to us. We also got to meet the parents - who had wonderful temperaments, and saw the puppies living with a family of about 5 kids running around. Lots of socialization for the pups from very early on.

Our pup didn't come with a health guarantee... but, our vet pointed out - his DID come with a guarantee... AND bad hips (which were nowhere in the published bloodline). So... life doesn't always follow the guarantees. Life happens.

As for dewclaws - our pup didn't have any dewclaws on her hind paws - and I'm pretty sure the BYB didn't do anything. The vet also could find no evidence of removal, no scars, etc. So... is this a breed trait possibility? I know Pyrenees often have 2 dewclaws. But I've never heard of a breed without them.

Duchess looks perfect to me! :)
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Denna'sMom, thank you! I was referring to the front dewclaws. Our first EM had them removed but Duchess did not. So I wasn't sure if a good breeder would have them removed or not
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

@ Dennas mom:

Well, you might want to have a look at the BYB thread.
Our pup didn't come with a health guarantee... but, our vet pointed out - his DID come with a guarantee... AND bad hips (which were nowhere in the published bloodline). So... life doesn't always follow the guarantees. Life happens.

I'm a little unclear about this sentence. I'm interpreting it to mean that your pup didn't come with a health guarantee, but your vet got a pup who did have one, but nevertheless turned out to have hip dysplasia (?) If I don't have it right, please correct me. Also, when you say, ' (bad hips)...which were nowhere in the published bloodline' do you mean OFA hip testing results? So the vet's pup's parents, grandparents, great grandparents all had health testing including hips? Did your vet say what the scores were? Genes do hang around a long time, so whilst it is possible for bad hips to crop up from parents with good to excellent hips, the more health testing and selective breeding that has gone into the line, the less likely it is that such a trait will be expressed.

Do you have a contract with your breeder that covers the breeder taking the puppy/dog back if at any time in her life time you are unable to keep her?

Did your breeder show -- or have evaluations done of their breeding stock by someone experienced in doing so? No dog is 'perfect' to AKC standards, but are you sufficiently knowledgeable about breed standards that you feel you can evaluate conformation of the parents? Your puppy looks adorable, but many health, temperament and genetic/structural problems may not appear for months or years.

Going to a reputable breeder is not an absolute guarantee, but they can stack the deck in your -- and your puppy's favour. Hopefully your puppy will grow up healthy and robust and bring great joy to your family.

@Raechiemay

Just wanted to add....don't worry about your pup being a little leggy and 'long eared' at this point. They grow into those ears, and oscillate between being leggy and short and pudgy; also they teeter-totter (hind end getting higher/front getting higher). It's usually no reflection on what they are ultimately going to look like. I can't help with the dew claws -- my show dog IWHs, GDs and now our EM all came with dew claws.
 
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ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Honestly I don't see ANY point in the removal of the front dew claws unless its required by the standard to show or they're loose and get caught on something (I thought you ment the rear dew claws too). The front dew claws are usually well attached, have bone, muscle and tendon. Removing them is NOT the same as removing rear dewclaws that aren't usually well attached by anything other than skin.
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

I wondered bc it seems like Duchess chews on her's sometimes. My other dog was born with dewclaws on all 4 feet which I didn't think was typical of dachshunds or yorkies. I considered having her back ones removed as one just seems to barely hang there but I honestly don't see the point so I'll probably leave them alone!
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

For the rear dew claws: It might be something to consider for when you have her spayed, otherwise, unless she injures one I don't personally see the point unless you plan to do actual work with her, in which case I can see it as a preventitive measure.
 

Robtouw

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

I usually leave the dew claws, they haven't been an issue on any of my dogs.
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

I'm not really worried about Duchess besides the fact that she chews on them once in a while. My other dog, Daisy, like I said in my above post has dewclaws on all 4 feet. I kind of worry with her as she is always jumping up on the couch & other furniture to get away from Duchess when she is in play mode. Duchess plays with her feet so one of those big heavy paws coming down on a 6 lb dog might hurt just a little! BUT I will say that Daisy holds her own & keeps Duchess in check. ;)
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Just to close the loop - a week later - Jadotha's comments/questions re: BYB's...

Our "breeder" said this was "Oops" litter #2... so, not sure if there's a 3rd "Oops" in the works or not (their excuses for not fixing either parent were pretty lame). I actually did have serious concerns about going with a BYB at first. But, considering or past dogs have all been mixed breed puppies from shelters, where we never got to meet the parents, had no health guarantee, no hip checks, nothing - just being able to meet the parents and see where the puppies were born and raised was big step up for us.

About the vet: Our vet has raised golden retrievers for decades. He did ALL his research before getting his last puppy, which came from one of the top breeders in the country. He flew out to get her somewhere on the east coast, I think (from Seattle). She came with every guarantee imaginable with hip checks going back generations... (this is all anecdotal, I'd have to send you to my vet if you want the details). Given all that, the 'pick of the litter' that the breeder sent him home with has all sorts of medical issues - including bad hips. Like you said, a good breeder stacks the deck in your favor - but still can't guarantee the health of the adult dog.

I'm sure the vet's breeder would have taken her back - but who wants to give back their baby after you've poured all that love into her and made her your own??

As the vet put it - people spend all this time researching and planning which puppy they bring home - but very rarely think twice about having a baby. Babies don't come with health guaranteers, we deal with the hand we're dealt. That was his advice to us - stop worrying about the past, and deal with the puppy you have. We have no other thought but to do just that. If she came up with bad hips today, I could not give her back to the breeder, even if that was an option. We'll do everything we can to make her as whole and healthy as possible. She's our little girl now!

I do get that BYB's are adding puppies to an over-populated planet, and for that I would never breed a litter myself. But, they raised a great group of dogs and found loving homes for every single one (the closest "real" EM breeder is over 250 miles away), some were even getting a second puppy from them. My two cents: Anyone who buys a puppy and does not rescue an older dog is supporting the 'puppy habit'. I'm guilty of that, in 3 out of our 4 dogs (one was a 1-year-old rescue). I have to admit, I'm addicted to puppies!

Getting back to the topic of this thread... dew claws...
Denna still has her front dew claws - they're full toes, with bone and tendon. They're not coming off.
I did a little reading on back dew claws, and some dogs are born without them, so that's not unusual.
 

raechiemay

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

DennasMom, what you said makes sense...that there's no guarantee that you'll get the "perfect" puppy even with all the testing breeders can do nowadays. With that said that still doesn't mean that I support the whole BYB & puppy mill ideas. And I completely agree with you that usually when people find things out health-wise with their dogs, we can't just return them like you would any item to the store. We experienced something similar with our first EM. She was diagnosed with hip dysplasia at 9 months. We certainly didn't say "WELL...she's broken let's return her!" And there would've been no way in HELL I would've given her back to that breeder. She probably would've continued to breed unhealthy dogs.

I don't think I would willingly walk into a bad situation with a BYB & intentionally purchase a puppy from them so that they can continue to view their dogs as money makers. What I looked at when I went to see Duchess' litter was the following: where were the puppies kept, are they clean, what do the parents look like, are other dogs on the property taken care of, does the breeder have record with actual stickers from the vials of vaccines that the pup might have gotten (I have a very particular reason why I look at this...), etc. Besides Duchess having a few fleas on her, everything else seemed ok to me. My future EMs will be purchased with a little more thought.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Dennasmom, thank you for taking the time to clarify. I, Cody and others have written extensively about our views on BYB's in the BYB thread. Just one clarification of my own (just to make sure I was clear)...

When I asked 'Do you have a contract with your breeder that covers the breeder taking the puppy/dog back if at any time in her life time you are unable to keep her'? This was not related to the breeder's taking a puppy back due to health issues. This is a clause, offered by responsible breeders, that protects your puppy throughout her life, in the event that your circumstances alter markedly for you, and you are no longer able to keep her.
 

futureowner

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

raechiemay, she is gorgeous and as long as she is healthy with people who love her and will take great care of her, that is all that matters. I mean, look at Colossus, I bought him from a breeder who has only bred 3 litters but his dad is a multi champion who won westminster a few years ago and Colossus is by far not breed standard. He was suppose to be a show dog but coming up on 4 months now and his head is hairier than when he was a pup!!
006.jpg@ 4 weeks old
Colossus 15weeks.jpg:) Love, love, love Instagram :)
 

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Jayne

Active Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

She is lovely x
My wee girl farts ( at least my hubby says its her) !!
 

Cody

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Raechiemay, absolutely love the dog you have! She is your beautiful baby.
No one wants to make anyone feel bad, guilty or upset with the dog they love. The main thing is to educate on the benefits of purchasing a dog from a reputable breeder.
I got my first CC from a BYB, she loved her dogs! Wanted to breed one litter to keep a baby from her babies. They were registered with the ICCF (Corso registry of the time, they were not accepted by the AKC yet). She loved her dogs, and Dolce was AMAZING with kids... Not so hot with adults but... Fast forward to 11 months, I had kept in touch sent updates, had a contract. No health guarantee cause she was only having the one litter, Dolce had to be put to sleep. Had DJD in both her knees and in her hips. Now when I contacted the breeder (mom's hips were prelimmed pennhip) I got no support. In fact she told me to f*ck off and not contact her again. So here is the difference, I had NO emotional support from my breeder to go through the hardest time of my life and explain to my son why his best friend was gone. The funny thing is I had other breeders, including Aurora's (I did not have have any plans on purchasing a pup from him, mainly cause he doesn't really sell his pups) and a great group of online CC friends to make up that lack.
Point is, a great breeder, if something goes wrong should be there holding your hand (virtually or not) and supporting you through it. For a great breeder it will be just as painful for them as it is for you.
That is my story.
 
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ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

I haven't read the entire BYB thread, but I have to agree with Jadotha and Cody. A GOOD breeder isn't just about health testing and a contract. A good breeder cares about the dog for their entire life. Apollo's breeder made it very clear that if we had any problems or questions we were to contact her, not just email but phone. If he develops any signifigant health issues she wants to know. She very bluntly stated that she'd rather help pay for expensive medications and keep him in his home than have a dog returned to her requiring major surgery BECAUSE the medication couldn't be managed when it was needed. When we were discussing possibly breeding him the discussion turned to showing him and now she's working her way through her contacts to see if theres anyone who might have a TM to enter into one of the shows we're going to so that he can earn a point to go with the experience. She CARES.
 

Jadotha

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Just to underline what Cody and Ruthcatrin said, as a contrast from my own experience.....I've discussed my Great Dane Dylan's many health and temperament issues -- which the breeder did not want to hear about, and severed connections. My other (responsible) breeders in England and -- thus far -- my current breeder were wonderful people who stayed in touch with me for the life of the dogs. They encouraged me to call if I needed any advice at all, and when I did call always got back to me within the hour. They were fonts of knowledge and rocks of support -- whether my questions had to do with training, feeding, behaviour, health issues, showing questions, or any other concerns they were there. If they didn't have the answers, they would refer me to someone who did. They were as worried as we were about the few accidents and health issues we experienced. One day, one of our Wolfies was run over by a car. My breeder was the second person I phoned, and they asked for hourly updates until he was out of the woods, and offered financial support if major surgery or transfusions were required.

At the age of 10, one of our Great Danes required spinal surgery to fuse and brace vertebrae that were out of alignment. His breeder also offered to pay for half of the surgery.
 

babyjoemurphy

Well-Known Member
Re: I think I made a mistake...(oh & a question)

Wow, it is amazing how some breeders do it for the love of the breed, and some for the love of the money. After adopting Murphy I contacted his breeder and she knew right away who Murphy was. She also told me how his brothers and sisters where doing. I explained to her how we ended up with the "big lug" and she was pleased to know he was not purchased. She also told me that some of Murphys sis/Bros were placed in homes that she knew would make great homes and placed free. It isn't about the money. I was happy to hear that. I didn't get a chance to talk more due to babies being born.
I would never return my dog due to health issues, but unfortunalty some will. I have meet people that say "its just a dog".