Hobby vs professional breeders

[Robtouw]

Hi Cody,

I prefer a female that has not had multiple litters for several reasons, I hate--no despise over breeding, as females age it becomes more and more difficult to carry a large litter to full term without complications. Genetic issues tend to increase in overbred pups. The breed standards recommend no more than 2 litters for the health of the female & the pups. I will not support a breeder who cages his females, overbreeds nor treats their females like stock. I also will not buy a pup that has parents from the same decendents, people will use offspring from a male then mate back to the original male thinking this makes the blood lines strong or "pure", not the case. So for personal reasons, I choose pups that come from the best conditions that I can find! I want all of my boys to have a long healthy life, the best beginning comes from a healthy inception.

To be totally clear about my opinion of making a profit, if the breeder regardless of pro or hobby is just trying to recover costs and a little over, I am fine with it. Breeding a fine healthy litter takes work, but the dumb asses out there breeding for pocket money with little regard to the stock they are producing and the care of their dams should face animal cruelty charges.

I encourage anyone buying a pup regardless of breed to question the care of sire & dam producing the pups, investigate, praise good homes & breeders regardless of professional status and encourage respect for the animals in their care. The more support good, healthy controlled breedings receive the better, poor breedings, crossed blood lines, accidental breedings and neglectful owners lead to strays and euthanization and wasted lives. I haven't met a dog yet that doesn't have something to give!

 

[northernmastiff]

That 2 $ an hour profit does not include the food, vet care and general maintenance of the adult dogs through out their lives. Nor does it take into consideration the purchasing, titles, handling fees, training costs of the parent/s that is spent prior to breeding. The creation of ones foundation. In many cases importing dogs/semen from overseas, the storage of the frozen goo, the testing on both prior to breeding...
In a business ALL costs must be taken into account.
Although at the time of sale the breeder may have cash in hand to buy a modest car, the reason they probably couldn't before is the $$$ all went to the dogs

Yep, agree completely. LOL. Just trying to say that profit really isn't a profit when it is that small.

 

[Kate Williams]

I never batted an eyelash while paying for Hank. I spent time and was completley cool with the whole process. He was raised in home with children. He loves children and cats. Go figure and he was worth every penny. If our breeder made a profit she damn well deserved it. She worked hard to hand over a healthy, socialized pup and I appreciate all her work. I happen to know she didn't make a profit. She really just wanted her two mated dogs to produce an offspring for them to raise as they love them so much but had she made money, I would not be offended in anyway. I think agruments can be made for and against all types of breeders. Their are bad people in everything. As for rehoming I wish someone would take my mean ass reject Chinese Crested that I have reared and toiled over for 7 long years. I love her and because there is not a better place for her issues than myself, she will draw her last breath with me. but rehoming does not mean you don't care. Just ask any foster parents.

 

[Cody]

This is taken from a Boxer breeder here's website.
Robtouw made me think about it hen talking about line breeding, something that we disagree on. I think line breeding can be a useful tool in cementing desired traits. I do agree however if and when it is done there must be outcrossing in the pairing as well. But again that can be a different thread.
It is also a good breeders mantra IMO.
http://www.tybrushe-boxers.com/20_Principles_of_Breeding.htm

 

[DennasMom]

Very interesting thread!

I think the whole problem here is mixing business with pleasure. We all so love our dogs and think of them as family, that it's just hard to consider using them as a business, too. But, if you think of them as "working dogs" and "business partners" - like in the rescue-dog example, I think that helps. It's not a business we like to humanize (making babies for profit), but that is essentially what it is. Being able to re-home your dogs is essential when dealing with a pack of more than one dog - we had to do it with one of our mutts... so I know how heartbreaking it can be, even when it's "just" a member of the family and not a valued "business partner" as well. We do keep tabs on our re-homed 'fur-kid' and he is SOOOO much happier now than he was with us (and the other dog). We know we did what was best for him.

And... from everything you've all written - it is extremely hard to make a profit as a breeder. - even with multiple breeding parents on site.

I don't think the OP was being difficult on purpose, I think it's just a difficult concept for us lay-people to wrap our brains around. That's one reason why (until Denna) we went for rescue mutts and not purebred dogs. We couldn't be happier with Denna, though... so I'm seeing the joy of the "other" side, now, too.

 

[masteneo]

I will admit that I personally prefer the growing trend for co-own and foster contracts where the dog goes to their forever home and the breeder keeps certain breeding rights. But you also need to understand that not all dogs bond that tightly with their owners, they may bond with the friend who comes by several times a week, or the handler they spent half their showing career with, or.....and in those cases the dog ISN'T happier with the owner. Not all personalities mesh with all other personalities, and thats true for dogs as well as humans. And in those cases the breeder needs to consider that they got what they wanted out of the dog, now to give the dog a home they can be happy in.

I have seen dogs do the bonding with a visitor or regular friend so tight and quick. Dogs always amaze me in their intuition of people. That actually helps me round out my thinking on this matter. I know from talking to neomamma( where is she?) that many of her professional breeder friends do this rehoming thing. And i recall that they always seemed to rehome to people they knew well. Thanks ruthcatrin.

 

[northernmastiff]

I have seen dogs do the bonding with a visitor or regular friend so tight and quick.

I have seen this as well. Actually, I think the only reason why my husband's grandmother likes me so much is because her little Shih Tzu bonded with me the first time I met her. She said the dog had never reacted to a stranger like that in her life. Only Shih Tzu I was willing to adopt if it was needed and my husband always laughs and says, "You know, I think my grandma likes you more than she does me." I think that too but don't tell him. :razzberry:

 

[masteneo]

@ cody i dont think dogs should ever be kept in a kennel and not on a couch with a family.-but thats just me, but your post did make a lot of sense and im happy the rehoming worked out for you.

Ahh , ok now i understand whats got you going on this. Its the kennels. ok , well at least we now can see a little clearer in to whats digging at you on this. I can respect that opinion, but i do disagree. just part of the fabric that makes up Mastiff Forums.

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------

I have seen this as well. Actually, I think the only reason why my husband's grandmother likes me so much is because her little Shih Tzu bonded with me the first time I met her. She said the dog had never reacted to a stranger like that in her life. Only Shih Tzu I was willing to adopt if it was needed and my husband always laughs and says, "You know, I think my grandma likes you more than she does me." I think that too but don't tell him. :razzberry:

hey my wife told me later long after we met, that on our 1st date, if her dog didnt like me she wasnt going on a second date with me. man i am a pure dog at heart, so i knew she was a special kinda girl.

 

[masteneo]

I have seen this as well. Actually, I think the only reason why my husband's grandmother likes me so much is because her little Shih Tzu bonded with me the first time I met her. She said the dog had never reacted to a stranger like that in her life. Only Shih Tzu I was willing to adopt if it was needed and my husband always laughs and says, "You know, I think my grandma likes you more than she does me." I think that too but don't tell him. :razzberry:

hey my wife told me later long after we met, that on our 1st date, if her dog didnt like me she wasnt going on a second date with me. man i am a pure dog at heart, so i knew she was a special kinda girl.

 

[mcarrel]

interesting thread I think many times people forget to calculate just what breeders spend testing, transporting,raising, purchasing new blood, housing etc not to mention maternal care, possible c sections and time spent etc I find it hard to believe when you calculate their costs over time that most reputable breeders get anything past breaking even and frankly I would guess most are probably in the hole lol

 

[ruthcatrin]

interesting thread I think many times people forget to calculate just what breeders spend testing, transporting,raising, purchasing new blood, housing etc not to mention maternal care, possible c sections and time spent etc I find it hard to believe when you calculate their costs over time that most reputable breeders get anything past breaking even and frankly I would guess most are probably in the hole lol

Mcarrel: Northern did a breakdown in another thread, on breeding Poms since she'd been involved in that. The end result was (assuming an 8hr work day, which isn't anywhere close to realistic when own dogs) was a pay rate of less than $2/hr. The big kennels might very well make something more, but the average small time ETHICAL breeder isn't making nearly enough to live on by breeding pups, and the couple I've talked to about finances consider themselves happy if they break even once they start figuring in what it took to get there. Yah, its a big check that comes in all at once when the puppies go out, and its likely enough for a really good downpayment on that new car, but the reason they didn't have the new car before was all the cash was going towards the dogs...

 

[mcarrel]

Yep Ruthcatrin I can totally believe that.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

This is always a touchy subject especially when you are taking it from 2 different perspectives, breeder vs pet people and to be honest neither is wrong, they are just different.

I don't put a limit on the number of litters a breeder has making them good or bad. I have seen people having 4+ litters a year and the dogs all getting what they need to be great ambassadors of their breeds and I have seen some have no more than one litter and the dogs not receiving the proper socializing, handling, etc. that made them terrible ambassadors of the breed. I choose not to be the breed police for my breed (quite frankly with the number of breeders now it is too hard to keep track of when I have all I need to do here although we all know who is doing what and we all have ones we recommend people avoid), I do what I can for my breed by helping out my breed club, getting out there and showing the breed in the best possible light and educating the public on them and what to look for in my breed.

I do not think it is bad to make a profit if you can from breeding. I had read it on another board that if someone was talking horses or cattle it wouldn't even be questioned about making a profit on the animals after the time showing and training and that canines seem to havea totally different mind set.

Jerms you are right, Hemi is my baby and although not part of my program will not leave my place. Danae the same thing as she is my boyfriend's heart dog. The puppies I kept from Danae's litter I do love do I have a connections with them, yes but is it like my connection with Hemi? No, I don't know how to explain that connection to you so I don't know that I can make that part of it clear. The female I kept out of that litter is dominant and unless my daughters are in bed I do not allow her and Hemi to interact as I must be able to correct any and all actions immediately and if I have to worry about my daughters then I can't do this properly, so we are on a rotate schedule with family time. I am still assessing whether they will be assets to my program or not (they don't have their health checks done yet and aren't completely mature) but with that being said if I do breed the female puppy and she gives me an outstanding addition to my program that fits into our home environment better (we like to have as many dogs as we can out at once which is why we currently only have one intact male) would I place the mother in a home where she could get all the family time and be the only dog and not have to worry about another dominant female? Yes as that would be best for her. It doesn't mean I do not love her or am not attached to her but sometimes doing the hardest for you but the best thing for them is the best way to show and prove you love them. I don't know if that makes sense or not and I apologize if someone already stated this as I am at work and still trying to catch up on all the posts after a weekend away and I just skimmed the stuff above.

I also don't think that dogs having kennel time is a bad thing. Our dogs do live mainly in the house but that being said I work full time and so does my other half. Our dogs have kennels outside that allow them fresh air and freedom during the day that allow us to enjoy relaxing time with them when we get home at night as opposed to 5 or 6 dogs that are so hyper from being cooped up all day that they can't leave you alone for 5 minutes.

PS I would love to make a profit! I haven't yet but I would like to

 

[masteneo]

Mary , you have whole lot more insight from the other side of the fence. It helps a ton to have your input in to this topic as we all know its a terribly touchy topic. honestly , i am surprised to see no one needed any warnings or locked accounts in this one.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Unlike most forums this place a bit more mature and we don't have mods corrupted by power. At least most of the time, lol


What power?

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Mary , you have whole lot more insight from the other side of the fence. It helps a ton to have your input in to this topic as we all know its a terribly touchy topic. honestly , i am surprised to see no one needed any warnings or locked accounts in this one.

I was a pet owner before with my rotties and I understand that back then I had a narrow view of what was right and wrong, it can seem very cut and dry when you aren't responsible for an entire litter or finding appropriate homes and ensuring the puppies get the best possible start, trying to keep some sort of detachment so you don't end up as a hoarder on TV that they are taking all your animals away because you couldn't provide appropriate care. I can tell you that until we had to do it ourselves I still didn't truly understand it. Some things that don't occur to pet people are some heart wrenching things that breeders can possibly deal with, like the examples given above losing their bitch, constant miscarriages, health screens not turning out on a gorgeous pup and then being judged by people for the choices we make all the time can be hard and a lot of times has some of us coming off as hard or cold but I can tell you that you have to have a thick skin if you plan to breeding because no matter what you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Correction

AKBull strikes AGAIN!!!! :lolbangtable:

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

Correction

AKBull strikes AGAIN!!!! :lolbangtable:

Mary well said.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

dub

 

[northernmastiff]

I found something really interesting on the whole, "breeders are making a profit" debate we have been having. The sites Bloomberg.com set the number of owning a dog for 12 years at 59,688.88 and RaisingSpot.com has set it at 4,620 to 32,990 for 12 years depending on the breed. Obviously, mastiffs are going to be in the higher bracket and if you take the cost of health testing, stud fees and everything and said a breeder puts in closer to the bloomberg quote, then a breeder is spending close to 60k to raise her dog from birth to retirement. If you are lucky and she has 8 puppies in each litter and she has three litters, your total profit is 52k selling them at 2500 per puppy. So in the long run, you are actually 8k in the hole.

Just thought I would put that out there as I saw this breakdown this morning. Forgot to say that those numbers were for pet ownership,not for breeding.

 

[barefoot]

never a thought of raising dogs as profit minded.......when one adds up all the hr's involved it's either a love of the dogs or wannabe thinkin' soley about potential profit at the expense of the dogs.........

I raise a litter once in a blue moon for replacements of my own working needs..........and feel that a place is needed for those who dedicate their lives to improving a specific breed............

always do your homework before shellin' out the cash and one will limit the negatives associated with profit minded individuals........


dawg on............