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Growling?

Steven C

Well-Known Member
I got a similar response 2nd time I tried positive reinforcement and had a happy dog, so it seems like positive works quicker then negative. Also I would not want to encourage the behavior in that video at all. Not at all what I want in my Corso, and I've now met around 30 corso's and none at all acted anything like that dog. I get that some need that level of protection, but I don't.
I do very much appreciate the input thought.

Also Ben, this is how Corso's are born. So the Corso that you met either had this trained out of them, or had it bred out of them. Or most likely scenario is the ones you met were trained to act decent in front of you because their leaders accepted you. Whether you like it or not, the dog in the video above has had no specific training to act like this, the only training here is the recall.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
Steven, I've never said that your way of training is negative, abusive, or anything remotely like that. I agree, and stated in my first post, that I would begin working on focus. That's standard training no matter what method you choose to use. All dogs go through a fear stage, not just all corsos. I'm very glad that your techniques have worked for your dog. Enzo appears to have a very different temperament than your dog does and will most likely require very different handling. That doesn't mean being permissive. It means understanding what will work best without shutting this dog down. As I've said many times, positive training isn't the only way. But I do believe it's the first place everyone should start. Each person must work with their individual dog.

I understand but in this case and the reason I jumped in to comment is I believe this dog is at an age where it is imperative to act quickly. I know at 8 months, my girl was a beast and post threshold very hard to handle. We still have issues getting her out of a kennel as she automatically hits a threshold even if we wait 10 minutes outside of the door. A work in progress that we don't mind because hey its a Corso, nobody said it would be easy.

I fear that with this particular Corso, if Ben spends months with the rewards and all that, it may become a situation that he may not be ready for. At 6 months this dog needs to know who the boss is and who to listen to. This dog seems to have more drive than his last dog and will require harder handling to gain control, just my opinion.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I understand but in this case and the reason I jumped in to comment is I believe this dog is at an age where it is imperative to act quickly. I know at 8 months, my girl was a beast and post threshold very hard to handle. We still have issues getting her out of a kennel as she automatically hits a threshold even if we wait 10 minutes outside of the door. A work in progress that we don't mind because hey its a Corso, nobody said it would be easy.

I fear that with this particular Corso, if Ben spends months with the rewards and all that, it may become a situation that he may not be ready for. At 6 months this dog needs to know who the boss is and who to listen to. This dog seems to have more drive than his last dog and will require harder handling to gain control, just my opinion.

I think Ben is pretty good at reading his dog and will do just fine with Enzo whatever training technique he ends up using. Personally, I feel this dog is driven by fear, not just more drivey in general. But not having seen the dog, it's just a guess. I think that with confidence building exercises and more time with his family he'll improve greatly. I also think it's important to consider that Ben's family hasn't had Enzo since he was a young pup. He's only been with them around two months, if I remember correctly, so he's still probably not completely trusting just yet.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
as someone who has always used corrections as well as rewards , and always will . the behavior described here is definitely not a "stern correction" behavior …….. as far as who's boss , best time to make that clear is on a little puppy , they're easy , they got no choice , you could pick their little asses up , their too little to resist anything , imo , if they don't know who's leading by 8 months your probably in for a rough go ………. i'd tell my dog no , they'd then know it is wrong , because they know what no means , and they have confidence in me . it actually would change the way they feel , the correction would make them more comfortable , at least it looks that way to me ? ………. as far as someone coming in the house or yard when your not there , there are plenty of dogs where that's never a good idea , they're not all lassie's no matter who's doing the training …….. I do believe the dog here is defensive/distrustful , defensive aggressive is a dog that is not for everybody and for limited situations ….. useful temperament , some folks actually breed for it , best protection dog you can have is a dangerous dog , that's fact ………

humans are hard wired to correct/punish and reward behaviors because that is a natural way of learning , everything is hardwired to learn and teach in that manner ……...as far as corrections not leading to lifelong behavior changes , that is just not true …….. the problem with corrections is folks tend to correct out of frustration or anger , which confuses the dog , and they learn nothing at best , or learn the owner is not trustable(to be feared) at worst………
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
…….. I do believe the dog here is defensive/distrustful , defensive aggressive is a dog that is not for everybody and for limited situations ….. useful temperament , some folks actually breed for it , best protection dog you can have is a dangerous dog , that's fact ………

As a Dogue de bordeuax owner of a very distrustful DDB and now Corso and everyone I know with these dogs. I have never seen or heard of one that trusts anyone outside their pack. My DDB refused to allow any male trainer go near him or even non trainers unless I accepted them and was there. My Corso will not let anyone go near her cage without me around. We dropped her at a K9 training center to socialize her with the police dogs and 3 hours later they were calling me that none of them could get her out of the cage due to growling and barking, so I had to drive back and get her out and stay there for a while.

So im not sure why defensive distrust is anything out of the ordinary for these breeds.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
having had somewhere near 60 ddb , with just about every line/dogue that I believe was worth having in them , in them …. it's not been the normal temperament for my dogues …….. to me distrustful is a temperament I personally don't like , the few dogues I've had exhibited that behavior i'd not breed ………. I've had ddb for near 30yrs , if that temperament were the norm i'd have another breed ….. over the years I could have had many top shelf American bulldogs , it's a temperament I have no interest in …...

des laube rouge , del matachin , des arbres , demons noir , des coqs , du bodscav , de Fenelon , pepignon , von holm , most any French , german , dutch or Spanish dogues that are worth being in their pedigrees are , my dogues been loving , bold , trusting and pushy , very dog aggressive ……

DSCF3384.jpg
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
having had somewhere near 60 ddb , with just about every line/dogue that I believe was worth having in them , in them …. it's not been the normal temperament for my dogues …….. to me distrustful is a temperament I personally don't like , the few dogues I've had exhibited that behavior i'd not breed ………. I've had ddb for near 30yrs , if that temperament were the norm i'd have another breed ….. over the years I could have had many top shelf American bulldogs , it's a temperament I have no interest in …...

des laube rouge , del matachin , des arbres , demons noir , des coqs , du bodscav , de Fenelon , pepignon , von holm , most any French , german , dutch or Spanish dogues that are worth being in their pedigrees are , my dogues been loving , bold , trusting and pushy , very dog aggressive ……

So your saying that the 2 of the most courageous guardian breeds in the world trust people outside of their pack? When I first got my Dogue I did tons of research as I really didn't know what exactly to expect aside from a very dominant breed. While talking to people all over the world, ill always remember this guy in Spain telling someone else that these dogs do not trust anyone. My experience was exactly that. Thankfully my Dogue did not trust anyone (accepted with a nod not trusted). And also quoting all of those Kennels, my Bodeaux was not some backyard dog, I have his papers here.

My first big dog was a Golden retriever and that dog jumped into the neighbors pool while it was filled with people, ran up to everyone to pet and exchange germs. Those 13 years reminded me of how much I no longer wanted a disloyal non guardian dog. I am very happy that the kennels ive chosen have provided me dogs that I expected, I would be very disheartened if I got stuck with a guardian look alike only.
 

glen

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think boxergirl just hit the nail on the head,
Enzos behaviour sounds very much like how budcuss was, we got budcuss when he was just shy of 14 weeks, im not sure if enzo had been living in the house before they got him but bud hadnt, outside the house bud would be great but ìnside the house he was very unsure how to act, he would growl sometimes he would back away other times he would stand his ground,
Myself and glen both agreed on how to deal with this, we wanted bud to alert us if anyone entered but if we said it was ok then bud should back down and be quiet, we asked many people who bud didnt know to come to our house we had bud on a leash attached to us when people entered we didnt approach the person but spoke to them we entered the living area and sat down then the guest sat down also, we told bud enough if he was still growling then to sit, then we carried on as normal talking to the guest ect, within a couple of weeks he got it, i would have him attached to me id go make coffee so id leave the room with him attached then enter the room again and take the drink to the guest with bud attached, he would growl when we re entered the room so the command enough when growling stopped sit. I can remember feeling like it had took over my life lol.
Steven, i agree that video is a cc, if someome is outside my property doing that budcuss would want to get to the other side, gandalf would but bud is wired different in many ways, he as taught me a lot, we have often said if someone had got him that didnt put the time in he wouldve been a very dangerous dog,.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
the dog in the video is scared , I looked at part two , the only thing he is guarding is himself ………. I have to think very few dogs would not threaten someone at the fence , certainly none I've ever had …… my dogues would do exactly the same , minus the fear , although I wouldn't let anyone tease them like that …….. I wouldn't trust a dog that had been exposed to such treatment ………I've seen dogs that were titled under pressure run off when it was for real , a dog barking at the fence while being teased is nothing unusual

my pedigrees are old , I've made an effort to breed old dogs..... I am of the belief if you want to produce dogs that live long and are healthy , you need to breed old healthy dogs ……... never bred a bitch less than 4 yr old , dogs as old as 10 never less than 8 , have used frozen semen from long dead dogs , my dogues pedigrees get old real fast …… the bitch in the picture is rano 2-3 times within the last 7-8 generations …. I do have the old temperaments , my dogs are dog aggressive , hunters and animal killers . they are crazy , athletic , drivey and energetic …… Bordeaux were fighting dogs , not guard dogs ……..fighting man aggressive dogs is not something that is particularly safe …….. not that you can't make them man aggressive , but it's not their nature , it's not a bulldogs nature ……..
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
I'm happy to report the weekend went great. Each time Enzo met someone, we'd correct the growl with "enough", redirect his attention usually by putting him in a sit facing away from the newcomers, we then would be overly positive saying "friends", and each time he became more and more comfortable. He'd sometimes forget, like after a nap, that this person he had met before, and we'd get a growl, but we'd just do the process again, that's about it.

Thank you everyone for your input. This was a new one for me. I don't think I'm completely out of the woods, and I can't wait to read up on "targeting", but we are progressing in a good direction.

Thanks again,
Ben
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Your family was on my mind all weekend, Ben. It sounds like you've figured out what works for your boy. Excellent job to all of you.
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
I'm happy to report the weekend went great. Each time Enzo met someone, we'd correct the growl with "enough", redirect his attention usually by putting him in a sit facing away from the newcomers, we then would be overly positive saying "friends", and each time he became more and more comfortable. He'd sometimes forget, like after a nap, that this person he had met before, and we'd get a growl, but we'd just do the process again, that's about it.

Thank you everyone for your input. This was a new one for me. I don't think I'm completely out of the woods, and I can't wait to read up on "targeting", but we are progressing in a good direction.

Thanks again,
Ben

That is fantastic, hopefully it sustains for you. I just saw the dog in the video where your daughter trained him and now I understand he seems much more docile. I jumped in as I am watching these Corso come up for rescue on a rescue site and its sad so if I can help a dog I will.

@Mark DDB were used in the Roman days as guardians to guard castles, to date they are used in France as Guardians of vinyards and villas. I'll agree that back in the day when used as castle guardians they would fight them with bears and tigers too so that is perhaps where you got the fighting dogs from, but make no mistake, DDB are world renown as guardians as Cane Corso but apparently Corso have had a lot of mixing over the years unlike DDB to make them a little more manageable or bigger for shows. It is also the reason why DDB do so well is very small apartments all over France and never go far from their masters. I am a big fan of DDB and if they trained better with more ring sport stamina I would have stuck with them especially after what has happened to the Corso breed. If anyone out there wants to know what their Corso has mixed in them for perhaps recourse against the breeder get a dog DNA test.
 

marke

Well-Known Member
previous to my pedigrees and dogues all I know is what I've read , I've not seen many pedigrees reliably go back further than ddb pedigrees ……I used to be pretty fluent in English mastiff pedigrees , saint Bernard pedigrees , bullmastiff pedigrees , american bulldog pedigrees , pit bull pedigrees , and newfoundland pedigrees .I have somewhere a decent collection of old and pretty uncommon dog books , this stuff was of interest to me at one time ……... in 1406 Edward Langley wrote a treatise titled "The Mayster of the Game and of hawks" , where he described the French alaunt as follows , "as a dog with a large and thick head and a short muzzle, which was remarkable for his courage, so that when he attacked an animal he hung on, and was used for bull baiting." he made the distinction between the English alaunt and the dogs exported to Bordeaux , whom R.H. Voss said were without doubt the predecessors to the dogue de Bordeaux ….. in 1557 dr. caius who wrote a study of british dogs for swiss naturalist conrad gesner where he described the mastyve or bulldog "as a vast, huge stubborn, ugly and eager dog, of a heavy and burdenous body, serviceable to bait and take the bull by the ear two dogs at most being sufficient for that purpose, however untamable the bull might be" ……… in 1585 Joducus Hondius created an engraving of two alaunts catching a boar …….

baiting was popular in England as early as 1154 , Bordeaux belonged to England from 1151-1411 ……

the dogue de Bordeaux was imported back to England as the dogue de Bordeaux in 1895 , they were last publicly fought as late as 1906 in france …….. those fighting dogs are the foundation of the ddb breed , they are in our pedigrees tigre , caporal l'imbattaile , sultan , lionne , neron , oural , porthos,….. early Bordeaux pedigrees are pretty much intact back to the late 1880's , thanks to folks like Bruno Cazalis , many of those fighting dogs I mention were photographed …...

as far as corso , I knew Mike sotille before during and after he brought his dogs here , I got a pretty good handle on what's in the cane corso breed …… they may be better at it today , but I seen some crazy results come back on dogs bred from many known generations 7-10 , that were obviously erroneous ……

here's what a dogue de bordeax looked like when I began , not an apartment dog for sure , outlast a hound without a problem , liked to kill animals , loving , trusting , sweet dog , I wish I could have her again ………….

abby9.jpg
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
as far as corso , I knew Mike sotille before during and after he brought his dogs here , I got a pretty good handle on what's in the cane corso breed …… they may be better at it today , but I seen some crazy results come back on dogs bred from many known generations 7-10 , that were obviously erroneous ……

Since purchasing my Corso I have heard multiple stories of what is being put in them, from Pitbulls to Great Danes, neither of which would do any good for a guard dog. Although I got very lucky with mine and my research in getting a solid not only guard dog, but also a watch dog. I am not confident enough in getting another. I will stick with the Holland KNVP Dutchies moving forward as you know they are serious highly trainable dogs.

One could only imagine what putting Pitbull into Corso would do as far as making a dog docile. Pitbulls will never be guard dogs and would destroy the Corso breed all together making them super friendly and also unpredictable at times, far from a solid guarding ability. I am also hearing Boxer but old Boxer was being put in way back in Europe. Its for this reason today we are seeing such a brutal difference for example in mine from Bens dog which appears to be a happy go lucky friendly type dog that happens to be a Corso also. Although I would never purchase another Corso, I am happy that I specifically asked for working line when looking to purchase, otherwise I would feel stuck with another golden, not stuck but actually robbed. Had I known this breed was so screwed with I would have walked away back then.

A good example would be this thread, you have Ben who says he knows 30 Corso that are nothing like a good solid skilled guard dog (supposed to be natural). Then you have myself who also knows several Corso that are in fact like the Corso with supreme guarding skills. So there is a situation where Corso is being changed and confusing people with huge variations in skill or type. While I know all dogs are different, this breed should at least have similarities in performance which obviously it no longer does. Now its a crap shoot on whether or not you get what you paid several thousand dollars for. DNA testing is a good way to see if you got Pitbull or any other non guardian blood in their.


nessafacebw.jpg
 

April Nicole

Well-Known Member
Since purchasing my Corso I have heard multiple stories of what is being put in them, from Pitbulls to Great Danes, neither of which would do any good for a guard dog. Although I got very lucky with mine and my research in getting a solid not only guard dog, but also a watch dog. I am not confident enough in getting another. I will stick with the Holland KNVP Dutchies moving forward as you know they are serious highly trainable dogs.

One could only imagine what putting Pitbull into Corso would do as far as making a dog docile. Pitbulls will never be guard dogs and would destroy the Corso breed all together making them super friendly and also unpredictable at times, far from a solid guarding ability. I am also hearing Boxer but old Boxer was being put in way back in Europe. Its for this reason today we are seeing such a brutal difference for example in mine from Bens dog which appears to be a happy go lucky friendly type dog that happens to be a Corso also. Although I would never purchase another Corso, I am happy that I specifically asked for working line when looking to purchase, otherwise I would feel stuck with another golden, not stuck but actually robbed. Had I known this breed was so screwed with I would have walked away back then.

A good example would be this thread, you have Ben who says he knows 30 Corso that are nothing like a good solid skilled guard dog (supposed to be natural). Then you have myself who also knows several Corso that are in fact like the Corso with supreme guarding skills. So there is a situation where Corso is being changed and confusing people with huge variations in skill or type. While I know all dogs are different, this breed should at least have similarities in performance which obviously it no longer does. Now its a crap shoot on whether or not you get what you paid several thousand dollars for. DNA testing is a good way to see if you got Pitbull or any other non guardian blood in their.


View attachment 61491

She's beautiful
 

Ben Curtis

Well-Known Member
Enzo loves "target" training. I had him jumping to touch my hand this morning. I'm looking forward to seeing where this new line of training may go.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Enzo loves "target" training. I had him jumping to touch my hand this morning. I'm looking forward to seeing where this new line of training may go.

Ben, you can do so much with it. Much more than you might think. Do some searching online to get more ideas of ways to use it for training. You might also be interested in some of the online classes offered by Denise Fenzi. I usually take the bronze level classes which are only $65. You might find something in the "Foundations" and "Behavior" sections beneficial, but there are a lot of other good choices as well. I see that there are several offerings in the behavior section starting in February and again in April that might be really helpful to you.

https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/schedule-and-syllabus
 

Steven C

Well-Known Member
you will not see this dogs hackles raised at anytime like the corso in your video ………..

I am very surprised you breed DDB. You should know the difference between guard dogs and trained protection dogs. You can train a poodle to be a protection dog and Pitbulls are very trainable. Corso and Bordeuax on paper are supposed to be the 2 most guardian dogs in the world aside from their cousins, presa, tibetin ect.