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Fun Vet Discussion (not really)

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
First off, Cinder is fine!! She had her 3 vet visit this morning, routine shots and weigh in...
At 7 weeks she weighed in at 11 lbs
At 10 weeks she weighed in at 18.9 lbs
At 13 weeks (this morning) 33.2 lbs!!
I did a rough shoulder height measurement last night and the best I could get was right around 16 inches...

She has been doing very good with her raw diet.. chicken and pork have gone down without any issues. She loves the beef liver, and this morning I have started transitioning to venison (deer) because that's what we have in the freezer, and she gobbled it up!!!

Now, the reason for this thread is that I happened to mention this morning to the vet we've been doing the raw diet. I can't tell you why I didn't mention it before... maybe because at the last visit we were about a week into it... or maybe it was because of some of the discussion here I've read that some vets arnt too keen on it... anyway... this morning I mentioned it.

Let me tell ya, she was not into it!! She said I could do what I wanted because it was my dog, but she did not recommend it, especially at such a young age.. I tried to explain to her how much better Cinder has acted, and smelled, and all that... and that I had done some pretty intense research online... but she point blank said "you really have to watch what you read online... its not all the best advice" .. and she really was emphazing how hard it was to get the right balance of nutrients she needs at this critical puppy growing stage.

Now, I'm not going to let her deter me from raw. Regardless of what she said, I know the research I have done was done weighing both the cons and the pros... and best of all... I have you guys!! I know, I know... you guys aren't vets... but I find the best knowledge comes from experience. And you guys have that, our vet doesnt!!

She never did try to sell me on switching back to kibble, nor did she try to sell me any of the science diet kibble she had there in the office. I think it was mostly because I kind of shut down the diet talk when I asked if they did nail trims, and she went to grab the trimmers. LOL ..

I did end up getting a vitamin-mineral supplement (brand is pet-form) because i figured it was best just not to fight her on it at this point. I haven't given Cinder one yet until I look it up to see what the reviews are, and also to check with you guys on whether she really needs it.

I'm going to be looking around to see if I can find another vet. This lady is nice and all, but I seemed to have really struck a cord with her this morning. I'm sure there are couple other vets in town, and a few more in the surrounding area... and if worse comes to worse, we are about an hr from the the big state capital city... id really like to find one more local for any emergencies that might pop up, although I know she would get good care regardless of what the vets opinion is on her diet.

I just thought I'd share my amusing experience with you all.

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Iulicris88

Well-Known Member
Well, one of the vets at the clinic I take my pup to tried very adamantly to convince me that I should start giving my then 12 weeks old pup calcium. I tried telling her that his food had enough of it and supplementing it might lead to health issues longterm but she was all what do you know, blah, blah, blah... I was like ok, ok, you are right, but still no. Also, while i was waiting in line a man came to buy food and said his 9 months Carpathian Shepherd was limping and another of the vets said he sould bring her for for an X- ray and untill then give her more calcium!!! Both of these doctors were young and had graduated from the same college so I wonder if that's what they're teaching them.On the other when i went for the last shot, the head of the clinic was there and i had the opportunity to have a very nice conversation with him. He gave me alot of advice, including to watch his calcium intake, keep him on the slim side, use supplements for his joints as he is growing very fast, and so on... Not much i didn't already know, but still usefull. Anyway, my point is that there are some very good doctors out there, you just have to go find them. If your doctor tries to push some old age ideas on you, just go find another one.
 

NYDDB

Well-Known Member
Winter's Cinder, you might want to find some raw feeding groups on Facebook, or other forums- just for extra support, to learn, and to trade stories, if nothing else. That's one of the first things I did when I got Mateo, and started feeding him raw at 8.5 weeks, and found it very helpful (as well as people here, of course.)

When I took Mateo in to my local vet for a puppy check up, he asked me what I planned on feeding him. I told him I was feeding him a raw diet. He briefly looked up from what he was scribbling on his clipboard, raised an eyebrow and said, "Well, I hope you know what you are doing..." I told him I did, that I had done tons of research, et. al. That was it- end of discussion. :) He has never brought it up again, thankfully. In fact, we rarely need to see him for health issues, and only stop by because Mateo loves to go inside and visit (he's only 2 blocks from me.) But, really, every time we do, he always remarks about how healthy he is, how good he looks...

So, I guess I am lucky--- even though he is not a "supporter" of the raw diet for dogs, he accepts my decision. And, at the end of the day, the health of your dog is all that matters!
 

marke

Well-Known Member
I’m not against raw , I’ve personally considered it for problems which just resolved themselves before I got to that point , and with the price of dog kibble I may still go that direction ……In defense of your vet , I wouldn’t want someone raising one of my pups on a homemade diet unless I knew they had done it before and had plenty of experience …. I’m sure your vet sees a lot of folks that really shouldn’t be doing the figuring on a large or giant breed puppies nutrition……folks may have a problem with commercial dog food manufacturers practices , but their science and formulations are beyond the scope of practically everyone who owns a dog … I doubt anyone could do harm to one of my adult dogs feeding them anything within reason , puppies is a different story , there are plenty of long term health problems linked to poor nutrition ……… if you feed raw and it solves you a problem , no one can argue with that ….. as far as longevity and overall health , watching what is pretty much my dogs raised on raw , alongside my actual dogs raised on kibble and table scraps , for the last 15 yrs . I certainly don’t see any difference …….. as far as experienced raw feeders , the longest I know is about 20yrs , the “give your dog a bone†book people , 20yrs is not even the lifespan of 2 generations of dogs , that really isn’t a lot to go on ………. When I see a vet that’s skeptical on the general public raising pups on raw , I think it’s perfectly understandable …….. as far as recalls , most of the raw food fed to dogs would be recalled for e-coli , listeria , camphylobacter and salmonella ……. Most recalls are done for the safety of the people handling the dog food , not the dogs …….. I’m told a healthy dog is resistant to botulism …….. didn’t dole just poison a bunch of folks , along with trader joe’s , and chipotle Read more: Mastiff Forum
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I dunno, I don't think your vet sounds so bad. She actually does make a good point about not believing everything you read online. There's a lot of bad information out there. If you trust her in every other way, and this doesn't become a huge issue, then I don't necessarily think a feeding disagreement means you have to find someone new. Nothing wrong with looking, of course, but there aren't very many vets that love raw feeders. My daughter recently finished a term in tech school where they discussed nutrition. One of the vet instructors feeds her Irish Wolfhounds raw (breeds, shows, and judges them too) and is holistically inclined. There was some open disagreement with her feeding practice by the other vet instructors.

Where are you located? Maybe someone has a recommendation in your area if you really want to change vets.
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
Hahaha, Marke. I forgot about that book. Give Your Dog a Bone. Dr. Ian Billinghurst. I was in that first wave of raw feeding way back then and did BARF. I much prefer some of the newer models of feeding. As I recall, my vet about had a heart attack when I said I fed raw.
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys!!!
NYDDB - at first I thought it was going to go that way when I mentioned it she said "well that's not my recommendation but she's your dog and can do what you want." But then she just kept at how hard it was to balance the nutrients, and no matter what I said about doing my research, or how much better she seemed.... the vet wasn't having it.. I think she would have pushed for kibble if i hadn't changed the subject to the nail trim...
She did say how good her teeth looked and she seems pretty healthy, but then I mentioned the diet and it went downhill from there... LOL... after the nail trim she started in about the vitamins, and as I said, I decided to not fight her on it and just bought them.

Iulicris88 - I have been looking at the vitamin contents and it has 8%-10% calcium... I know I'm not supposed to over do it in this department and her current diet model is the 80-10-10 she gets approx 2lbs of meat, approx 4oz of chicken necks/backs a day... and then I add in 3-4oz of beef liver over 3 days in the week... so im not too sure about adding in another 8-10% of calcium daily. ..

I will check out some other raw feed forums!!

Ps... I love seeing all the fun pictures of Mateo!!

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BAMCB

Well-Known Member
I have a thread on this a few months back:) lolI actually asked my vet(worked there many years) when I decided to feed raw. Sonny was 10 or 11 weeks then. Her recommendation was to not feed him raw until at least 6 months but preferably 1 year. I smiled, nodded and said thank you. Went home, did more research and started him(and Ava) the next week. He had a huge weight gain and his growth plates became more prominent in the next 2 weeks so I brought him to be looked at. She, once again, said to switch to kibble to be certain ratios are correct(enter in my former thread;)). Long story short, the last 2X Sonny(now 10 months) has been to the vet we get awesome remarks about his health, teeth and weight. I just smile, nod and say thank you. If you like your vet and they are close and offer the services you want then I'd say not agreeing on a diet is not a deal breaker. Kinda like a pediatrician. They will always error on the side of caution but I am the mom and make the final call. When asked if my toddler was night weaned yet I would just smile and nod;) Eventually they stop asking. LOL
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
I have a thread on this a few months back:) lolI actually asked my vet(worked there many years) when I decided to feed raw. Sonny was 10 or 11 weeks then. Her recommendation was to not feed him raw until at least 6 months but preferably 1 year. I smiled, nodded and said thank you. Went home, did more research and started him(and Ava) the next week. He had a huge weight gain and his growth plates became more prominent in the next 2 weeks so I brought him to be looked at. She, once again, said to switch to kibble to be certain ratios are correct(enter in my former thread;)). Long story short, the last 2X Sonny(now 10 months) has been to the vet we get awesome remarks about his health, teeth and weight. I just smile, nod and say thank you. If you like your vet and they are close and offer the services you want then I'd say not agreeing on a diet is not a deal breaker. Kinda like a pediatrician. They will always error on the side of caution but I am the mom and make the final call. When asked if my toddler was night weaned yet I would just smile and nod;) Eventually they stop asking. LOL
I will look around and ask about vets here... if I can't find one that we like better, then we will stick with this one... it def isn't a deal breaker, but if we end up sticking with her, I will probably forgo the diet converstion... lol...

I get the peds reference. .. our 2 youngest girls are small for their age... they are 11 months apart and each one did the exact same thing between the ages of 12 month and 16 months... they hardly gained any weight... this resulted in a blood draw for both of them at that time to rule out any problems... they were both fine and the dr at the time resolved to just let it go and chalk it up to genetics... when we moved and got a new ped.. he suggested the same thing the first check up they went to... I laughed and said NOPE!! he looked at me funny and I explained to him what we had done... I told him that they were just small and I assured him they were healthy regardless of his stats chart... and I wasnt going to put them through anymore needle pokes than neccessry...

He was a really nice guy and understood... so I get this vet may not agree with me on her diet, but we still want to look around for another in case she has some diet issues down the line that may require a bit more knowledge on the subject...

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DennasMom

Well-Known Member
I looked up the supplement... looks like a calcium and vitamin A supplement with some other vitamins and minerals, if this is it: https://www.vetdepot.com/product-labels/pet-form.pdf
I'd probably not give it at this point... since you're adding in liver now, and that's really the 'vitamin pill' of the raw diet.
Check out 1oz of liver here (keep scrolling down to see all the vitamin and mineral content): Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Beef, variety meats and by-products, liver, raw

The male vet at our local vet has great references as a large breed vet (mostly GSD's, but quite a few Danes and mastiffs now, too). When he asked about diet, and I said "raw"... he asked what kind... I said "whole prey model"... and he just nodded and we moved on to the next item.

When one of the female vets heard we had started raw - when Denna was about 6 months old - she was very glad we had waited that long to start (which we only did because I was still doing research)... she said she sees LOTS of health issues due to home-prepared meals for puppies that are not balanced correctly. I'd hazard a guess those diets leave out the organ meats, and might overdo the bone.... although I can't image overdoing bone not being obvious... i.e. when the pup can't poop anymore due to constipation. :(

How did this vet feel about timing on spay? If they push for the 6 month spay, that would be another indicator of lack of giant breed knowledge...
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info!! Yep that's it... I saw on the bottle most of what set off my radar... I really didn't like the calcium amount...
After I read some other comments I did join another group on Facebook and they all say not to give it to her... most of them are not mastiff owners but they do say they wouldn't do it because of the extra calcium causing her to grow too fast. Which I know we don't want to do with a mastiff ...
I understand how some vets could see it that way, but she wasn't even willing to listen to what I had to say... or explain what I have been doing... im out there in the ice and snow checking her poop to make sure it's the right consistancy!! She didn't want to hear it...
As far as spaying goes, she asked about it our very first visit and pushed for the 6 month mark if we decide to do it because she said the earlier the better because it was going to way more expensive if we waited for her to be full grown... I laughed later when I was reading on here to wait until at least 2 yrs... I laughed even more when I remembered her answer on pricing... roughly about $50 difference in price...
I think I've decided I pretty much paid $19 for a bottle of vitamins to leave an argument this morning... LOL

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Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
Had another vet appt this morning... last set of shots!!!
I dont know if the vet decided she didn't agree with my choice of diet for cinder to the point it was a deal breaker for her... but the vet cinder has been seeing didn't do her appt... the other vet in the office did...
I didnt bother to ask because she was just getting her last set of boosters and rabies... shes done with shots until her next rabies in a yr...
He did push the spaying issue... really taking advantage to take about what a mess this huge dog was gonna be in a few months going into heat .... and that if we were gonna do it.... we needed to do it in about 2 months time... (cinder would be almost 6 months) I just smiled and said I would think about it.... lol
I also asked about heartworm meds and he gave her intellitex (or something named like that) today but he really deflected selling me anything with saying since she was gonna grow at such a rapid rate... he would really like for me to bring her in at least once a month so he could just look at her growth and to have her weighed... now while I don't mind do this (im just as curious to watch and chart her growth) I can't help but get the feeling his intention is to hound me more about getting her spayed and other vitimins... *sigh* why can't some vets just agree to disagree on an owners wish to do things a way different than their own?....

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TricAP

Well-Known Member
I forgot to say she weighed in at 40.2 lbs!!! Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

It's great to hear she is doing so well! I feel you on the vet and raw diet discussions. I've learned to just be gracious, nod and smile when they give me their opinion. I see for myself how much better all 3 of our dogs are doing since switching to ever go back.
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
It's great to hear she is doing so well! I feel you on the vet and raw diet discussions. I've learned to just be gracious, nod and smile when they give me their opinion. I see for myself how much better all 3 of our dogs are doing since switching to ever go back.
Craig came home over lunch and we were discussing the vet visit. ... he doesn't want to spay her too early either... mine is more giant dog breed health reasons... while his stem from having Blue (his cat) neutered super early... everyone always comments how "fat" Blue looks (on the rare occasion he is seen by visitors) but Blue isn't fat... he just has a big "pooch" that hangs... craig says he's always had it and it's from getting him neutered too young....
So despite the vets pushing we will stick to our guns on that issue... Craig also vowed to help me on the raw diet... he helps me with it around here, but he did tell me, he's glad I tried this crazy diet because she is so healthy... lol... so he will try to be more voiceful around others to help support OUR decision to feed her this way...
He did offer up that maybe the vet wants us to bring her in for the growth charting because maybe they've never encountered such a big breed and they want to learn too.... and that maybe I was being a little too guarded and crazy about their true intentions... (IKR? ME... crazy?!?! Whaaat?.. LOL)
So maybe the man of the house might get me just a little and understand my crazy.... lol...

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BAMCB

Well-Known Member
I must be lucky, my vets may state different opinions but it's left at that. And after watching Sonny grow so well and be healthy they don't even bat an eye at our choice to feed a raw diet.

Cinder's mom- I swear you and I must be pretty close in personality as well as our husbands. Cracks me up to read your conversations. I sometimes read it out loud to hubs and he chuckles too;) Hahahahahaha
 

angelbears

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't pay for a vet visit. The vets I have used since having a giant breed always appreciated the fact that I brought them in for just a visit with the staff and to get a weight. It is great socialization for your pup. I have never been charged for it. We never went into a room but most of the time at least one vet would be out and about and stop and have a look at the puppy.
 

Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't pay for a vet visit. The vets I have used since having a giant breed always appreciated the fact that I brought them in for just a visit with the staff and to get a weight. It is great socialization for your pup. I have never been charged for it. We never went into a room but most of the time at least one vet would be out and about and stop and have a look at the puppy.
I'm pretty sure that's what the vet was getting at and not paying for a visit. ..

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Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
I must be lucky, my vets may state different opinions but it's left at that. And after watching Sonny grow so well and be healthy they don't even bat an eye at our choice to feed a raw diet.

Cinder's mom- I swear you and I must be pretty close in personality as well as our husbands. Cracks me up to read your conversations. I sometimes read it out loud to hubs and he chuckles too;) Hahahahahaha
Lol... I love it!!! I can get crazy and overzealous at times... its great to know I'm not the only one!!! LOL!!!

I wouldn't pay for a vet visit. The vets I have used since having a giant breed always appreciated the fact that I brought them in for just a visit with the staff and to get a weight. It is great socialization for your pup. I have never been charged for it. We never went into a room but most of the time at least one vet would be out and about and stop and have a look at the puppy.


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Winter's Cinder

Well-Known Member
I must be lucky, my vets may state different opinions but it's left at that. And after watching Sonny grow so well and be healthy they don't even bat an eye at our choice to feed a raw diet.

Cinder's mom- I swear you and I must be pretty close in personality as well as our husbands. Cracks me up to read your conversations. I sometimes read it out loud to hubs and he chuckles too;) Hahahahahaha
My real first name is Winter.. (yes for real... no my parents weren't hippies... and yes I have a Dec birthday. ..) LOL

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