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Frustrated with training and trainer

DMikeM

Well-Known Member
I am completely frustrated. I have been taking Crusher to socialization classes for a few months and he is doing well around other dogs. But I have had concerns about him around children because he growls and puts on an aggressive stance when they come near him. I mentioned this to our dog trainer and he had me meet him in the village where there are kids and other people. When walking past some kids I slowed down a little to let Crusher see them and the trainer said I gave Crusher bad signals by doing that. So I walked him past a couple times without slowing and Crusher didn't really react. A little later a family approached and when the child came close Crusher growled so I put my hand on his face and gently eased him away from the kid. The trainer said this was okay as it was not an aggressive growl. But to me this is still a threatening posture for the dog to take.

After a little more walking around the trainer says well he looks like he is doing good just don't pull on him or give him bad signals and left. So I walked him around some more and people were crowding us to see and pet him and ask the usual questions. Well this woman in an orange jacket was coming our direction and Crusher seemed to notice her. She asked if it was okay to pet him and I said sure just don't look him in the eyes or crouch over him. Well she put her hand out and he growled and snapped at her hand. I jerked the leash back just in time to prevent her from getting bit. I apologized and she left. Moments later a dozen or more people showed up and several kids were all around us. Crusher was very unhappy and growled a lot and took a defensive posture. I told everyone he was nervous and they should leave us to train more.

Well I texted the trainer and explained what happened and he says it is my fault, and I give off too much excited energy to Crusher that I over react and make Crusher doubtful.

Honestly I just don't know what to do anymore. I guess it's just not safe to have him out in public, like I do with Jade and Odi.

Today he texted me and wants me to meet him in the village again and he wants to bring 2 dogs with him to teach Crusher by example. I take Odi and Jade with him into the village and they don't act like Crusher shouldn't he be learning by that example?
Do you Mastiff, or Boerboel owners think our breeds should just not be public dogs? Like "Look but don't touch" My dogs are not trained for Personal Protection or guard dog training and I don't think any dog should show signs of aggression towards children or individuals that are not posing a threat.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
I nolonger let kids approach Kryten. We had a problem last fall with kids entering the yard to pick apples despite being told that they had to stay out of the yard. Kryten took offense to their entering his yard and developed a severe distrust of those kids. Over winter it appears that he transferred that to all school age children. It doesn't help that most of the kids around my house are immigrants whose parents are afraid of such a large dog so the kids show signs of fear around him. He reacts to fear. By not allowing kids to approach him I've been able to get him to remain calm in their presence but I don't know if he will ever be comfortable with school age children again.

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DMikeM

Well-Known Member
I even had confident kids approach and pet him and he postured and growled. There is also a lady I am friends with and he growls at her. Yesterday she gave me a hug and I thought Crusher was going to attack her. First thing he did was get between us and then he leaned against my legs growling at her. I know it was jealousy but wow that is just too much.
 

teodora

Well-Known Member
I guess it depends on each individual dog... Luna doesn't like people - other people. At all. She never did. I socialized them all the same way: Jack and Sophia are social butterflies, Luna is not.I simply don't let people pet her.
 

tmricciuto

Well-Known Member
I agree. And don't teach him not to growl, that's his way of telling you he's uncomfortable. Without the growl you just have the bite.

Sage is great around people, but Bella is very indifferent. Sometimes she's ok with them and sometimes she is scared or anxious. I just take her on walks but only take her around people when we go to the groomer or the vet. I just know her limitations and respect them to help her be in a better mental place.


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Hector

Well-Known Member
Mike - I suggest you teach Crusher how to turn off leash pressure also known as pressure on/pressure off. Look it up on youtube. Basically, you are teaching the dog anytime he feels the collar go tight, he understands to go towards the pressure to turn it off. I'm not talking about jerking or corrections or leash pops. This is a steady application of pressure and once the dog gives any acknowledgement such as head turn, eye contact, body turn, basically any attention to you, you need to give them lots of slack on the leash. If the dog goes back to being distracted after you give him slack, then apply the pressure again and hold it steady until he gives in and comes towards you and you might need to do multiple little ones in order to the dog moving by your side. Teach this until the dog is fluent in low distraction, open areas preferably with a 10 ft line. I find that 6 ft is too short and not enough line to work. Once the dog understands what this all means, take him to an area where there will be kids. Make sure you give yourself plenty of space to work with. Start doing this exercise and slowly decrease the distance between you and the kids. Apply pressure when the dog sees the kids, but make sure to apply it before the dog gets too stressed out. Once the dog comes towards you, create lots of space between the trigger. Continue to actively engage the dog either by rewarding with food or praise or lots of motion. Repeat the exercise and move forward at your dog's comfort level. Try not to get him to become reactive. As you and the dog get better with this exercise, start incorporating simple obedience drills around those triggers starting with lots of distance. The more the dog works around these distractions, the faster he will not be bothered by them.
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
And...I was not done, stupid computer. Right now the dog is uncomfortable around kids so you make sure you keep your dog safe by making sure you make room when you take your dog out and keep the kids out of the space bubble. The first step is to get Crusher to watch kids without reacting at a distance. Then you want to get him to be able to do obedience around them. Once you are able to get Crusher closer to kids - continue with the pressure on/off exercises. Never ever let any children or even adult come up to Crusher and touch him when you are training. He may just be one of those dogs like mine that I will never let a stranger touch. First of all, I don't trust my dog and second of all I know how easily his nerves can get to him so why risk it. A calm, obedient dog is what you should be aiming for, not a stranger petting dog.

I really don't think it was your energy that caused Crusher to react, but more on how the stress built up and then he finally exploded. This is often called trigger stacking. I notice that stress builds up easily with Hector and every episode he encounters if within short amount of time, the more explosive his reactions can be. I also disagree with what the trainer said about bringing your other two to show Crusher how he should act. A pack can often mask how insecure a dog is. Once the pack is gone, they often feel vulnerable and nervous dog comes out right away and that's where you come in to help. You help the dog and teach the dog how to relieve pressure from triggers. You have to put in the 1 on 1 work with Crusher. I have used this method on a handful of nervous, fearful dogs. In a very short time, you will see improvements - if you do it right. lol
 

teodora

Well-Known Member
Something I've seen with the pack: the girls make Jack more reactive. Sophia will follow Luna's lead. Only one dog out of 3 is not friendly but that one dog will set the dynamics in the pack. It's like they transmit their worries and energies and amplify them. To be honest I don't trust any of them not to do petty shit off leash if they're together. I tried to put Luna on leash but she transmits her energy to the other 2 nevertheless. She initiates a chase for example and she's on leash - Sophia will get the idea and do it. Jack not so much, he has a mind of his own, but he's still more reactive with them than without them.
Fortunately mine doesn't have any other problem with humans than totally avoiding them. She won't go to them and bite - she won't go to them at all. If they approach her she leaves.

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Hector

Well-Known Member
Hector. Totally opposite of what the trainer is telling me.
I expected that from what he's been telling you. A pack can help Crusher, but only if they act calm around kids and you not allowing any interaction between dogs and kids because the focus right now is to ignore kids and handler focus.
 

QY10

Well-Known Member
Based on what you've said, I'd definitely be seeking second and third opinions. I don't really agree with what your trainer has been telling you. I really like Hector's advice.Across a Threshold | Whole Dog Journal
This article goes over thresholds fairly well, I think.
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
I'd pick Hector's advice over anything...
Is the trainer giving you any tips for how YOU can act differently, other than "you're doing it wrong"??
And, based on how Jade and Odi turned out... I don't think you're the problem... I think Crusher has some un-learning to do, and some new habits to form to help him deal with scary 'unknown' people.

I also react to growls... with a "what?" [i.e. 'dog you're being silly, that is not a threat']
or a "leave it" [i.e. 'dog be quiet, that's not your concern']... often follow with a "sit" (or "down") request to enforce the concept.
or "let's go" [i.e. I agree... I don't want to be here/around that, either]

Not that the first two always work, but the last one normally does... :\
 

karennj

Well-Known Member
Get your dog a do not pet or in training vest with a stop sign on it. People need a visual to give you both some space. Also, don't let people approach him. He obviously does not feel safe interacting with people so stop and chat but ask people to give him distance. If he does not think everyone who approaches is going to touch/get right next to him, he might settle down. He may never be a lab type of dog but you should be able to take him out in public safely. He is giving appropriate warnings so don't push him past his comfort level. People don't need to touch your dog, it is ok to say no.
 

Joao M

Well-Known Member
Disclaimer: Please take my comments with a grain of salt. I live in another country, different culture and different approach with dogs. Here it is normal for everyone to pet other people dogs and nobody think that is rude; dogs are used to it since puppies and are socialised that way. Many dogs run off leash in public parks. There are very few dog centers with socialization classes and mostly (only ?)used by first time dog keepers and some novice owners of dogs that came from rescues and have issues. Most dog behaviorists run out of business. Generally speaking people take it easier. So what applies here may not apply where you live.

Having said that... it is obvious that Crusher is not confortable with kids and/or strangers that approach him (too quickly?). Is this a new behaviour or something your noticed before the classes? How are those classes? Is the contact with strangers and stranger dogs forced in any way? In close quarters or open areas?
As reagrsd the children issue. Is there a kid (friend, son of friends...) that he likes and trusts? He could be used. Having him around Crusher, walking with him etc, could help your dog to feel more confortable around other kids later. Then slowly you could introduce other kids to the equation
 

DMikeM

Well-Known Member
Okay so we went out to the village again on Sunday and he brought a smaller well adjusted female dog with him. When he first showed up I allowed Crusher his lead and let him rush the other dog. Guess what, he just ran up and sniffed her. No aggressive anything. On the weekends we have hundreds of tourists and often dozens of other dogs in the village. This is where I desensitized and socialized Jade and Odi. I asked Dave (trainer) if he had researched my breed at all and he admitted he had not so I explained to him how this breed was made SPECIFICALLY to protect and how they often bond closely to their owners. This gave him a little pause and he seemed to understand a little more what was going on.
So we went for a walk and encountered a couple smaller dogs and initially Crusher reacted and lunged but we were able stop calm down to walk past them a couple times after a fast leash correction. We encountered a couple families with children and instead of stopping and letting people ogle over Crusher we just corrected him quickly and walked on. After the third child he did not even look at the next kid (bonus). We eventually stopped and let people come around and ask questions and pet Crusher but only briefly. He allowed it without growling but he really did not care that there were other people to interact with. He really wanted to just ignore them which is actually one of the common traits of this breed. The only thing that matters to them is the master and protecting the master. Dave took his leash a couple times and I backed away a little and Crusher walked with him but was very aware of my location at all times.
I think this is progress and good training for both Crusher and Dave. I think he will gain a better understanding of the breed in time, which is good because he has 2 of my other pups as clients. Dave gives me free classes and has me help out at times as he knows I am versed with dogs and dog training and I give him free computer help.
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
Sounds like a very good day!

Maybe this trainer isn't all bad after all... I mean, if he does listen to you and can adjust his thought/process for the specific dog [including breed-specific traits]... that's a huge bonus!
 

AZ Boerboel

Well-Known Member
Sounds to me like you have a Boerboel that just doesn't like other people very much. Mine is like that. I won't have mine out around people other than my wife or I unless she is leashed and I can be fully attentive. It can go from a warning to lots of blood so fast so we don't risk the chance of it. We heavily socialized her and she showed no issue with others until she started maturing. If you aren't comfortable with your trainer, find a new one. Being comfortable and following what they say properly goes hand in hand.
 

DMikeM

Well-Known Member
Yeah for now I have decided he is the type of BB that is best to not let people mess with. The other day he warned the plumber that ignore my warning to not put his hand in Crusher's face. So what did he do? Yep put his hand out for Crusher to smell and Crusher growled, and bumped his hand with his mouth with a sharp bark. He didn't bite but he did touch him with his teeth. The plumber conceded and agreed that he didn't need to pet Crusher.
 
I dont let people approach my dog without my permission, my dog is not public entertainment and I have no problem telling people to go away, interactions are on my terms as he has anxiety and socialisation issues. Your trainer sounds lazy to be honest, I would seek a second opinion.

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rakkus

Well-Known Member
i had a mastino that was 1 year old when i got her she came from a drugs dealer and was only in a garden and beaten and sigarets put out in the neck and full of scabies it was horrible i took her and she was never been on the streets she qwas fearfull aggressive / devensive to etherything cars children people dogs when you raise an arm when you picked upo a stick and so on i hade a pack at the time of a bordeauxdog/bulldog mix male of 8 very stable dog a pitbull female of 9 years old and a jackrussel male of 14 yaers old a very stable pack and real social to etherything.it took me 2 years of walking her al day some tmes even 15 km a day (of course with blessing of the vet) and pet her in so many new situations that after 2 years she was not fearfull eany more and real stable. i come from the netherlands and pitbulls were band here but not any more sindce a few years so you have all dees stupid ignorant wannabee gangster types that get pitbulls for the wrong reasons and that means that there are so many pitbulls getting in shelters but dont get a owner because of dog aggression or even people aggression . when i had my mastino i took these so called aggressive dogs and get them in my pack to socialize them and after the 2 years she was the stable factor in the pack she would correct the new dogs she became the best helper i had sometimes i had a pack 10 dogs the 4 of my own and 6 so called aggressive ones and my mastino was the boss after me the thing i wanted to say was maybe exersice him in his pack for a couple miles do obedience wile walking and then go in to the village and try it with the trainer when his energy is drained worked so well on my mastino it god all her aggressivenees out of her and made me realy fit because we walked between 50 and 100 km a week .