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EM Breeder Discussion

voidecho

Well-Known Member
I don't know anything about them, but I do like the looks of their studs. They also said they health tested them too, which is a good sign.

Sounds like they want the pups out by 6-8 weeks and that you have to pay to keep them there longer. Not sure if that's common, but I've never heard of that before.

The do accept back dogs, but I don't like that their pet quality dogs are required to be altered before six months.
 
I don't know anything about them, but I do like the looks of their studs. They also said they health tested them too, which is a good sign.

Sounds like they want the pups out by 6-8 weeks and that you have to pay to keep them there longer. Not sure if that's common, but I've never heard of that before.

The do accept back dogs, but I don't like that their pet quality dogs are required to be altered before six months.

Thank you for your input. I too love the look of their studs, and am pleased with their level of testing and commitment to take back any puppy for any reason. I did not catch that they charge to keep them longer, so I'll be going back to see what that's about. I also did not catch that they require altering before 6 months. As an owner of other giant breed dogs I would not feel comfortable altering that early in their development.

Again, I appreciate your input. I have had trouble getting feedback on other forums which is sad for a person who is new to a breed and trying to make the best decision. I know from growing up in the show ring and trials, that there is often much to learn about a breeder that you would not know until it is too late, or some other breeder is willing to be honest about what they know (which is not often). I heard much at national specialty dinner tables, and alongside grooming tables, that was never divulged to the poor puppy seekers that traveled to these shows in order to be a responsible buyer. Now I'm the outsider newbie and hear little but the sound of crickets when I ask about specific breeders.

So, again, I appreciate you taking the time to look and share your thoughts even though you aren't familiar with the breeder in question. It is helpful and reassuring.
 

voidecho

Well-Known Member
No worries. I know I'm going to be looking for another pup in the next two years, so I enjoy taking a look at new breeders.

As for the altering before six months, I've definitely heard of that with other breeders when they sell pet quality pups. I'm guessing many of them would be flexible on that after you discuss your reasons for waiting.
 

alwcm4

Well-Known Member
I have never heard of them in the Mastiff breeder world, but just looking at their website and from what you guys mentioned, I honestly think that no responsible breeder would ALLOW you to alter an EM before 6 months. I want a breeder that has done research and really knows the breed and anyone that has done research knows you should never alter a Mastiff at 6 months. If I know more about the breed than them that's a problem. Also with any breeder, don't take their word for it, make sure you ask them to see proof of the health testing or go to OFA's website and verify it yourself. Also a one year guarantee isn't that great with these giants seeing how you can't even do a permenant OFA screening on most tests until the dog is 2. Might also ask to see stacked side pictures of the parents, a face can be nice with a trainwreck of a body, so I would want to see the whole dog in all it's splendor. It might just be their wording and their website design, but they seemed to be really all about selling selling selling, free stuff, free stuff, free stuff. Thier website definatley throws up red flags in my book. On a side note Medicine Man is in 1000's of dogs pedigrees, people who tote their dogs pedigrees that are related to long dead dogs just because they are famous is a pet peeve of mine. It takes 1-2 generations of less than stellar breeding to take a pedigree into the ground. Again, I don't know these folks and have never heard of them, but just in glancing I would be leary.
 

Tailcreek

Well-Known Member
In addition to the previous comments, a few more observations...
They seem to be doing minimal health testing, mostly hips/elbows and eyes. What about cardiac exams? Cystinuria?
They really put a lot of emphasis on SALES on their website and that their mastiffs are HUGE - tells you what their priorities are. They claim that the stud of their current litter will have his hips & elbows certified when he is two years old...so he was used for breeding before this certification was done and before he was even mature. The dam is apparently under the 2 year age mark as well, and will be getting her hips and elbows certified once she is two years old. The point of health testing is to complete it BEFORE the dogs are used for breeding.

Check out the "donation" page. They gratefully accept cash donations to help them care for their animals?? One of the dogs on their rescue page was a dog they purchased to breed but he had bad hips. This is not a "rescue".

Overall, sounds like bad news. I would look elswhere!

Jennifer
The Natural Carnivore - Home
Tailcreek Mastiffs - English Mastiff breeders in Alberta, Canada - Home
 
Thank you all for your input. I put all of these questions to the breeder and received the response that all the puppies are claimed and that there will be no further breedings. (shrug) seems fishy to me. In the 3 years I have been viewing their site they have always, always noted which puppies were claimed from the time the first pictures were up. Feeling like I dodged a bullet there.

I love the look of their dogs, but it is my absolute priority to have the healthiest, happiest, most stable dog. The search is still on. Trying to find such a dog with the appearance that makes me swoon, and willing to wait however long it takes to find that perfect dog. Secretly hoping that it's not yeeears, and happily, apreciatively accepting alll suggestions, pointers, warnings, tips, and personal favorites! ;)
 

WalnutCrest

Well-Known Member
Did anyone see any pedigrees on that site? I ask because there are some Mastiff
"breeders" out there that I would have quite a difficult time finding myself ever buying from or breeding to...and without knowing the pedigrees of the dogs, I'm not sure I'd feel real comfortable going forward, even if all I was looking for was a great family pet.

Also, I've learned that there can be a big difference between a "fun looking / big / squishy faced" Mastiff and a properly built, conformationally correct, structurally balanced, exquisitely tempered, and breed-appropriately-athletic Mastiff.

Just so I can learn, for those who said they liked the looks of those dogs on that website, what is it about them that caused you to say, "YES! I want one of those!"?
 

voidecho

Well-Known Member
I didn't say I wanted one, but did say I like the look. I was specifically looking at the guy I've posted pictures of below. He just looks big and solid, but not fat and not overly wrinkly. I'm not an expert on mastiff comformation, so describing in detail what I do and don't like doesn't come easily to me. I just know he looks "good" to me. He may not be the perfect example of the breed, but I prefer the look below to some of the really lean looking dogs I see listed as champions some times. I would prefer in the profile shot below if he was holding his head up higher to get a better feel for his true form.

mastiff1.jpgmastiff2.jpg

I will say I prefer the face of the dog you have in your avatar to this guy above though. Your dog's face makes me think mastiff.
 

WalnutCrest

Well-Known Member
That's very kind of you to say --- Duke is a sweet dog and fairly represents the good and bad characteristics of the dogs in his pedigree. There are a few more pictures of him on my website (link in my sig).

Regarding structure, it's quite difficult to comment without seeing the dog in person (or at least in an unedited video showing the dog moving). Some dogs look great standing still, but couldn't move (i.e., do their job of guarding your estate, which is their historic job) if their (or your!) life depended on it.

As a result, I have no comment about the particular dog above ... just always curious what others see that they find attractive.
 
There are a lot of nicely combined physical traits in their dogs. I *cannot* speak for their genetics, etc, and have moved on from considering this breeder, but I did fall in love with their *look*.

They have the nicely beefy, strong, but not fat/saggy body. Good bone. Topline is nice, length to height gives a strong looking structure.

The heads are gorgeous. They are heavy, and well proportioned to the body... not too small, and not so heavy that they look like they'll tip over. They have a good square shape, which I much prefer over the triangular or circular head.

They have a very appealing amount of "looseness" to their skin... not so wrinkly that they start to look like a Neapolitan, but not so lacking that they begin to look like a Dane. The muzzle is nicely proportioned, and I like the levelness of it. Neither smooshed in, curved upward, nor too long. It's wide and strong like the head and body, where some lines have a much narrower muzzle with more sag. I just prefer the wider proportions.

There is a general cohesiveness to their appearance that speaks of balance and regality. I would be interested to see how they move, or at the very least would like to see their dogs properly stacked so that you could better judge their frame.

As with all breeds, I guess, there is a lot of range in the personal preference amongst their admirers, but I love this look. It reminds me of the Greiner Hall dogs that make me swoon. And, now that I look, I recognize your kennel name too, because it is bookmarked in my "must look into" folder ;) along with Jaden and Greiner Hall, and a couple of others. Once I found Greiner Hall I was able to start chasing down their genetics to see who is working with that look that I love so much.

I have a hard time with my attachments to breeds because I have seen some of my favorites change so dramatically with the current fashion. The Belgian Sheepdogs and Collies that I grew up with are hardly recognizable to me anymore. There was a time when we bred for bone, squareness, and strength of appearance. Now they are both tiny, pointy, little gists of their former selves. Golden's have become nearly blonde poof-balls with a perpetual puppyness to them. It makes me sad. I like the stability of the mastiff breeds. Danes still look like the Danes I grew up with etc.

I love the heavy Old English look of the Greiner Hall dogs and hope that it continues to be upheld in some lines. Not that I can claim any expertise in the breed to make such a statement, but it is that look that dragged me away from our own grooming tables to gawk and admire the EMs whenever I could, since I was a child.
 

voidecho

Well-Known Member
^What he/she said! :)

The head on the dog above looks good and well proportioned in the front shot, but actually looks a little small in the profile shot, which is why I wish it was looking up more as it could just be the camera angle.

I like what you said about the skin. I have absolutely nothing against Danes and Neos, I just much prefer the look of EM's. I want my EM's stomach to hang down much lower than a Danes. I'm not a fan of the high tucked stomach of a Dane or Boxer. I also don't want nearly as much loose skin as a Neo. I like some loose skin for sure, but not so much that the skin around the eye droops as much as a Neo. I really don't like to see all of the pink around Neos and some EM's eyes. Not a look I like.

I also really prefer the muzzle to be shorter rather than longer. Somewhere right between a Dane and a Bull Mastiff.
 

LauraR

Well-Known Member
I like that the original post was segregated with locations. I am looking to add our first EM to our family sometime in 2014 and am starting to do my research on breeders so we can have time to make a well placed decision. Unfortunately a lot of the subsequent posts do not include the general location. It would be nice to see some sort of list that divided it up based on state, or even East Coast/West Coast/South/North/Midwest/Canada, etc. I found a breeder that sounded perfect and after spending about 20 minutes just drooling over them I realized they were in Canada. Major bummer :-(
 

LauraR

Well-Known Member
Never mind, I missed the post where you said that you were going to reorganize everything based on state/region. Sorry :-(
 

voidecho

Well-Known Member
Yeah, once this thread has run it's course, I'll put together another thread that lists all of the breeders and will organize them by location.
 

LauraR

Well-Known Member
Thank you for taking the time to do that. I can't speak for everyone here, but I can tell you that I really appreciate it.
 

Rolly

Member
Any reputable breeders out there that have a litter available in the near future? I have been looking for sooo long...and might have to settle for a BYB

Location is not really an issue...but Canada would be preferred

thanks!