Do you find a breeder irresponsible for allow buyers the option to S/N?

[Duetsche_Doggen]

We had this discussion yesterday and apparently breeders who allow owners to do so are, irresponsible. So if you were a breeder would you allow buyers the option yes, no, and explain why.


I find breeders who do this are more reasonable people and think outside the norm. I would allow buyers the option IF they ask, and prove whether or not they are responsible.

 

[Smart_Family]

I think on a case by case basis I would be open to it. The owners would have to explain why they didn't want to spay/neuter and it would have to be an appropriate answer. "I want him to be a tough guard dog" for instance would be a no but "I want him to grow to his full size with all his hormones" would be a yes most likely.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Smart, I agree usually you can tell the deadbeats from "genuine" inquires, though not always.

 

[Smart_Family]

Oh yea there'd be a lot more screening involved. I don't know if I could ever breed because I'd never want to give up my babies!

 

[Geisthexe]

As a breeder I do the following:
1. Purchase Full Rights to a Working dog do not have to sterilize, Unless they never work the dog
2. Purchase Full Rights Show the dog do not have to sterilize, Unless do not do anything with dog
3. Co-Ownership this depends as some I have breeding rights too
4. Pet Quality MUST sterilize dog

All come with a contract of what they can and can not do.....

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Deb for show and working I could see, as they would be testing evaluations. So you don't allow "pet" owners the option. May I ask why?

 

[ruthcatrin]

Apollo's breeder required us to NOT neuter before 10months of age (unless there was a health issue that required it) after that there was no requirement one way or the other except that his registration was marked as not for breeding till I gave her the results of his OFA results.

Having talked to other breeders it varies, some are really really strict about it, others are willing to modify their standard contract after talking with the puppy buyer. But every puppy contract I've seen contains reference to spay/neuter in some shape or form. I've even seen ones where it simply states that the puppy buyer will spay/neuter if at any point they no longer feel they are comfortable with their ability to avoid unwanted breedings.

 

[ruthcatrin]

And I still think you're miss reading Walnut's post

 

[WalnutCrest]

I look at it this way ---

Is a breeder of any type of pure-bred dog more responsible to (a) the dogs they produce, or (b) the breed as a whole?

Many breeders would say (a) ... I, however, would say (b).

And, so, I could suspect that a breeder who answered that (a) is more important than (b) would feel differently about required spay/neuter of the pups they produce than a breeder who felt (b) is more important than (a).

And, since I feel (b) is more important than (a), it's my duty to the breed to do everything in my power to ensure that any less-than-stellar representatives of the breed are kept out of the gene pool ... so, I have a required spay/neuter on pups I don't keep (or that don't go to the owner of the stud dog, if I used an outside stud and the stud owner kept a pup in lieu of the stud fee) ... HOWEVER ... pups can't be neutered before 15 months (if female) or 18 months (if male) ... and can only be neutered after I tell the puppy buyer that their animal is to be neutered.

I believe it's my duty to the breed to do everything I can to keep poor phenotypical or genotypical specimens out of the gene pool. Now, I'm quite careful to do "best to the best" type of breedings ... as many other breeders try to do to the best of their ability ... but, as we all know, there are no guaranties in breeding. So, if a dog with lousy phenotype (or genetic issues) pops up, then, that animal will be dealt with in a manner directly proportional to the issue at hand, and I will be the sole arbiter of what to do, how to do it, and when to do it ... realizing that (b) is more important than (a), to me.

Do we really need more breedings of "he's such a nice dog" to "if she has a litter, it'll even out her temperament", where the pups end up on craigslist or in shelters?

Again, I'm quite sure that rational and well-thought-out people will differ with me ... and that's fine ... as long as they won't begrudge me from having my well-thought out view on the matter.

 

[WalnutCrest]

PS --- This is a very similar issue I'm discussing with someone else off-line ... what are your views on breeders who require co-ownership on all the pups they produce?

I know it's not for every puppy buyer ... but, puppy buyers may find it well-worth-while to consider the reasons why may a breeder insist on it.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I think it should definitely be a case by case scenario. I, for one, prefer to not neuter my dogs. I don't see any reason to put them under unless it is medically neccessary. I have owned a lot of dogs, none of them ever neutered except for my favorite boy who got bit by a spider and it became medically neccessary to do so. I do understand that it is a tough decision for the breeder but I would hope that the breeder is getting to know the buyer for an extended time prior to them taking a puppy. I mean, a breeder could contact the vet and ask about the buyer and thier dogs and any issues/litters, etc.

I have never had a litter of puppies nor have my dogs ever been the cause of a an accidental litter. My dogs are my family and I treat them as such and make sure that they are always where they are supposed be. I guess everyone says it is different but I thinik if you can prove that you are a very responsible pet owner and you have a reason your would prefer not to neuter, it should be considered by the breeder.

 

[dpenning]

I think a logical follow up to this conversation is, if you DO require spay/neuter, do you follow up with every puppy buyer afer the appropriate time interval? For example, spay after 18 months... so do you follow up at 2?

 

[WalnutCrest]

I think a logical follow up to this conversation is, if you DO require spay/neuter, do you follow up with every puppy buyer afer the appropriate time interval? For example, spay after 18 months... so do you follow up at 2?

A responsible breeder would follow up, yes.

Not every breeder follows up. Some times, that's on the breeder ... sometimes its on the puppy buyer for "disappearing".

 

[Geisthexe]

Deb for show and working I could see, as they would be testing evaluations. So you don't allow "pet" owners the option. May I ask why?

What option?
To Evaluate the dog?
They can evaluate the dog all they want but if you purchase a dog for showing / working to be able to breed in the future then you play the same price as everyone else. This is why they purchase PET QUALITY ..
Did I answer your question?

 

[tb44]

I agree with Kris. I have only had two dogs in 36 years that were s/n. 1. was a rottie that I rescued and was already s 2. Was a breeder agreement. I do not like having to put my dogs thru unness. surgeries, I am a very resp pet owner.None of my dogs ever got another dog preg. I would be more than willing to sign per say a legal contract saying that if my dog ever was bred that I would pay a fine even if that fine was per say $10,000. That is how strongly I feel about not wanting to put my dogs thru any surgery.

 

[WalnutCrest]

One of the benefits of living in America is that we can definitively state that, "Just as not every breeder is for every puppy buyer, not every puppy buyer is for every breeder."

So, you will refuse to buy a pup from some breeders, just as some breeders would refuse to sell you a pup.

Doesn't make them right and you wrong, or you right and them wrong ... it's just a side-effect of having opinions and living in a (largely) free society.

 

[mx5055]

PS --- This is a very similar issue I'm discussing with someone else off-line ... what are your views on breeders who require co-ownership on all the pups they produce?

I know it's not for every puppy buyer ... but, puppy buyers may find it well-worth-while to consider the reasons why may a breeder insist on it.

Just for my own education, what are the pro/cons for the breeder who require co-ownership of their pups, and what are the pro/cons for the buyer?

 

[angelbears]

A responsible breeder would follow up, yes.

Not every breeder follows up. Some times, that's on the breeder ... sometimes its on the puppy buyer for "disappearing".

It would be interesting to know how many owners are contacted by the breeders to follow up or even try to enforce the contact. I have owned many AKC dogs and I have never been contacted in that regard.

 

[WalnutCrest]

It would be interesting to know how many owners are contacted by the breeders to follow up or even try to enforce the contact. I have owned many AKC dogs and I have never been contacted in that regard.

I ask only because I don't know you or your situation ... but, have you ever purchased a pup under any sort of a written contract where you make promises to the breeder and they make promises to you (beyond telling you that Fido is a purebred Blah-Blah-Blah breed dog, registered with the ________ Kennel Club)?

 

[WalnutCrest]

Just for my own education, what are the pro/cons for the breeder who require co-ownership of their pups, and what are the pro/cons for the buyer?

Great question.

As I see it ... and others should feel free to chime in if they see it differently ...

The two biggest Pros / Cons to Puppy Buyer of co-ownership are -- Pro is that you're more likely to have a mentor in the breed ... and ... Con is that the breeder may give you information you don't want to hear (i.e., you have a nice pet, but he/she isn't a world-beater and shouldn't be bred, you need to get him/her neutered/spayed) and still expect you to do something about it.

The two biggest Pros / Cons to Breeder of co-ownership are -- Pro is you're more likely to be able to reduce the chance that an irresponsible puppy buyer is able to do something detrimental to the breed itself and/or your reputation within the breed community ... and ... Con is that, even after having spent hours trying to get to know the puppy buyer, and you've made every effort to pick the most sane sounding puppy buyer with whom to place your nicest pup that you're not keeping, that puppy buyer has lied lied lied lied and, once the pup is in their arms, you never hear from them again (which is what would have happened under own/co-own, frankly).

****************

If someone wants to defraud you, they can and they will.

If someone wants to stir the pot in an effort to make you look bad and/or hurt your reputation, they can and they will.

So, to a breeder who has put thousands of hours of research into pedigrees, ailments, mentorships, etc., and thousands (if not tens of thousands / hundreds of thousands) of dollars into the dogs themselves (showing, breeding, etc.), what would be reasonable for them to expect in terms of a sane puppy buyer?

Most puppy buyers just want a beastie for the house and yard and family trips ... etc ...

Most breeders just want SANE people who keep promises they make when they're picking up Fido (even if the promises are no longer convenient for the puppy buyer to keep).

So, what should a breeder do who if a puppy buyer had their 2nd pick male out of a litter (where the breeder kept the pick male) ... but ... only after considering the dogs at 2yrs of age, did the breeder admit they kept the wrong dog, and wanted to neuter the one they kept and collect the semen from the one they sold ... only to find out that the puppy buyer neutered him without telling the breeder. There is NO price the puppy buyer could pay the breeder for debasing their promise to not neuter their dog until the breeder told them to.

Similarly, what should a breeder do if a puppy buyer had their 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] pick male out of a litter, and the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] pick pup just sorta ‘fell apart’ after a couple of years … which, unfortunately can happen … and the puppy buyer decided they’d buy a bitch off of CraigsList and breed them to “try to get some of my money back†… and then bred the dogs and registered them under some miscellaneous breed registry … including your kennel name all over the pedigree … what is your recompense to your tarnished reputation within the breed community?

Breeders are (or should be, at least) in this for the long haul ... for generations longer than the typical puppy buyer.

The breeder you buy your pup from should be at least as knowledgeable as you are about the breed ... so, if you fancy yourself to be in tune with the nuances of a particular breed and that, in fact, you know more than your breeder ... it's time to get yourself a new breeder.

...sorry for the ramble...