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Do Any English Mastiff Breeders Breed Obedience / Working Titled Dogs?

bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
I am the proud owner of a beautiful but very shy EM, Belle. With a lot of hard work and socialization we have overcome a good deal of her nervousness but a large part will always remain due to genetics that can't be overcome. I believe the breed has over time become more prone to poor nerves and excessive shyness.

One of the things I LOVE about the GSD breed in Germany is, only dogs with actual Schutzhund titles get bred - an objective test of good temperament, nerve, and working ability. No test is perfect, but it is at least an objective, third party observation of a dog's overall appropriateness for breeding (or not), rather than just an owner subjectively deciding their dog is "worthy" of breeding.

I am wondering if any english mastiff breeders operate this way. As a starting point, we could assume an EM that passes the CGC test is not an *extreme* nervy, excessively shy case (well, my dog has nearly passed, and she is very shy tho we've worked hard to improve her confidence). Or even better, if the mastiff passes a TDI test or receives a CD or CDX title, it could be considered to have a "good nerves temperament (for a mastiff)".

Of course, health is important too, and I respect breeders who will only breed more mature dogs with good x-rays etc. I just think it'd be nice if there were EM breeders out there who were only breeding dogs proven from both a health, but also, temperament standpoint (and not just based on their own subjective opinion, but with some titles or certs to back it up).

Anyone know of an EM breeder out there who fits the bill?
 
Duetsche_Doggen

Duetsche_Doggen

Well-Known Member
I've looked and found nothing. Most show breeder standard point is that temperament is "tested" in the ring.

I wish there was a Zuchttauglichkeitsprüfung or ZTP test here for mastiffs.....we'd be so much better off. IMO
 
bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
I did locate this breeder whose philosophy I like:

http://workingmastiffs.com/

We have our own bloodline that we started from Willowledge, Gulph Mills and English stock. We have a lot of fun with our dogs, as you will see on our other pages! We are dedicated to producing quality Mastiffs that enjoy soundness, health, longevity and have good temperaments. We have been testing/titling our dogs for over two decades. All of our breeding dogs are MCOA GOLD Health Award winners and have Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) Certificates, a fact no other breeder can claim.

http://workingmastiffs.com/working1.htm

Plenty of CD, CDX, TDI, etc!



---------- Post added at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

Well after another half hour of Googling, I literally can't seem to find a single mastiff breeder who backs up their claim of breeding for temperament, with anything concrete (trialing, testing or certifications for the sire and dam).

Surely there are a FEW breeders out there who do this? If not in the US, then in Canada or the UK?
 
bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
Well after another half hour of Googling, I literally can't seem to find a single mastiff breeder who backs up their claim of breeding for temperament, with anything concrete (trialing, testing or certifications for the sire and dam).

Surely there are a FEW breeders out there who do this? If not in the US, then in Canada or the UK?
 
ruby55

ruby55

Well-Known Member
You might be hard pressed to find a breeder you like but there's no reason you can't get involved in other sports with Belle. I don't want to mis speak, but most of the EM's I've met have been a little shy around strangers. It's ok; it's just how they are. But if you can pass a CGC it's just a short hop to certification as a therapy dog. We have one in our group here. You're right; wheelchairs, bedpans dropping, erratic behavior are all things she will have to get used to but you can do it.
Also, she can do obedience, and Rally. If you don't mind being on the bottom of the list she can probably do agility too, just not as fast as those border collies & Aussies :)
 
bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
http://www.miramontmastiffs.com/miramontgirls.htm - 2 bitches in the breeding program - both have CGC cert.

I realize the CGC is a pretty low standard for working ability -- but it's SOMETHING, and it's objective, at least.

Have found some other breeders with a CGC cert here are there, but I'm only bookmarking the link if I see at least TWO of the dogs in the EM breeder program have the CGC or another certification or title that suggests decent temperament or working ability.

I also paid $5 for a breeder packet from the national club, so I will report back if that leads anywhere...
 
bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
Found yet another EM who seems to actually value working ability: The Mastiffs of Island West

http://mastiff25.tripod.com/id12.html

Pictured above is our foundation bitch , Our very sweet Can Int CH Auroja Slow Bear Kara CGC. ...

Kara was bred to a beautiful male Am, Can, Int, Ch. Sugar Foots Shot In The Dark,CD,CGN. also known as "Buck"


They also have an AMAZING stud dog (from a working titled EM standpoint):
"CH Dralions Mountain Of Island West CGC , RN, PCD. DD, "AIOC,PCD" "AIOC,RN""
http://www.englishmastiff2.com/id20.html

This breeder also maintains an entire website about carting and draft work:
http://www.englishmastiff2.com/carting/index.html

Alright so the count is up to 3 -- I've so far found 3 EM breeders who bother to title or certify the dogs they breed, for temperament, obedience or working ability!
 
bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
I don't want to mis speak, but most of the EM's I've met have been a little shy around strangers. It's ok; it's just how they are.
Click to expand...

I agree with you... but the breed standard says:

Temperament
A combination of grandeur and good nature, courage and docility. Dignity, rather than gaiety, is the Mastiff's correct demeanor. Judges should not condone shyness or viciousness.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/mastiff/

I just think it's something breeders need to be addressing, and in a more objective fashion.

I always enjoy reading old time descriptions of the breed,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Mastiff#Miscellaneous

"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sinking before him. His courage does not exceed its temper and generosity and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race. His docility is perfect; the teasing of the smaller kinds will hardly provoke him to resent, and I have seen him down with his paw the Terrier or cur that has bit him, without offering further injury. In a family he will permit the children to play with him and will suffer all their little pranks without offence. The blind ferocity of the bulldog will often wound the hand of the master who assists him to combat, but the Mastiff distinguishes perfectly, enters the field with temper, and engages the attack as if confident of success: if he overpowers, or is beaten, his master may take him immediately in his arms and fear nothing."

I am wondering, which of the modern breeders is getting CLOSEST to the old style, gentle guardian mastiff type. So far, http://workingmastiffs.com/ seems to be the most promising lead I have (as well as the other 4 breeders listed above).
 
Tiger12490

Tiger12490

Well-Known Member
Someone needs to work them in there original task or recreate the EM of old I bet they were a site to behold

Tapd on my skyrocket
 
bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
I found another breeder that is breeding a dog with CGC, TDI:

http://www.oasismastiffs.com/link-x-ellie.html

Just the dam.
I broke my 'rule' above, by listing a breeder with only one obed./temp. titled/certified dog in their program, rather than at least two titled/certified dogs in their program. However this breeders' other dogs have plenty of CD, TDI, CGC in their pedigrees.

If anyone else has any other leads for working english mastiff breeders, please chime in!
 
bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
Alright well as the saying goes, "if you want something done right..."

I took my research above, as well as, bought the $5 breeder referral list from the national club. THEN I googled each breeder name to see if they had a website (maybe 66% of them did). This all took me four or five hours total :mad:

The following is my list of english mastiff breeders who are breeding for temperament & working ability, and have certified or work-tested dogs and bitches in their breeding program to "back it up".

The list is not definitive. I have listed the location of the breeder and tried to link to the page that related most to the temperament or work testing on the breeder's site.

*** EDIT
I'm not sure I explained what the list is or why I made it, very well. So just to be clear,

1. In general I think there are a lot of mastiffs out there who are overly shy and fearful.

2. I am looking for a mastiff breeder who breeds for temperament and working ability. Basically a mastiff with enough nerve and sound temperament, that they can do therapy work or obedience work, not be nervous in public, etc.

3. I believe temperament and nerve have a heavy genetic component. Socialization gets you far, but only so far. If dam and sire are nervous dogs, their pups will probably be nervous. On the other hand if a dam and sire both have good temperament, there's a good probability that many of their pups will, too (even though there's always some variation within a litter).

4. A related problem: Pretty much every mastiff breeder, whether bad, good, great, or backyard, claims to breed for temperament and working ability. But obviously not all of them do (see point 1.)

5. So, going by my motto 'trust but verify', I'm making a list of englishmastiff breeders, that have multiple dogs/bitches that they breed, with CGC or TT certs and/or CD, CDX, RN, TDI titles. Essentially I am using these titles/certs, as objective evidence of good temperament of the dogs being bred.

*** END EDIT.

"Excellent Working / Tempered English Mastiff Breeders (Backed Up With Certs / Titles)"
Breeders With 2 CGC (Or Equivalent) Studs / Dams in Breeding Program
http://friendsmastiffs.com/Gunnar.php MI
http://www.selenemastiffs.com/SeleneMastiffsGirls.html WA
http://www.mastiffs-of-lynnspride.com/Mastiff boys.htm Alberta, Canada
http://www.miramontmastiffs.com/miramontgirls.htm PA / CO
http://www.hrothgarmastiffs.com/ NY
http://www.kingmontmastiffs.com/Contact-Us.html CA
http://www.lexingtonmastiffs.com/males/ NJ
http://www.hrothgarmastiffs.com/ NY

"Extra Excellent Working / Tempered English Mastiff Breeders (Backed Up With Certs / Titles)"
Breeders With 3+ CGC (Or Equivalent) Studs / Dams in Breeding Program --OR-- 2 Dogs With TDI, CDX, Etc.
http://www.mpagimastiff.com/therapy.htm MO
http://www.kindredmastiffs.com/our girls.html AR
http://www.marcymtnmastiffs.com/marcy.htm WA
http://www.rainydaysmastiffs.com/ranger.htm WA
http://www.bandamastiffs.ca/WhereAreWeHeaded.html Ontario, Canada
http://caninerehab.com/newbeginnings/girls.htm AZ
http://mastiff25.tripod.com/id12.html BC, Canada
http://beowulfmastiffs.com/page/Brood-Bitches NY
http://www.gothicmastiffs.com/amintl-ch-rigger2006.html AZ
http://www.sherridanekennels.com/english_mastiffs_stud_dogs.htm AZ?
http://www.divinemastiffs.com/giambi.html CO
http://www.eximiusmastiffs.com/girls.html CO
http://www.owenspride.com/females.cfm MA
http://workingmastiffs.com/ FL

Please comment here if you believe I made any mistakes or omissions. Or if you have any other ideas (besides looking for titled/certified dogs) to find the breeders who are truly focusing on temperament and working ability, please comment as well!
 
Last edited:
futureowner

futureowner

Well-Known Member
bellemastiff, I think I'm lost in what you are looking for but "beowulf mastiffs" is definitely a great breeder and Susann will help with anything you need!! she has a ton of dogs that have their CGC, they just aren't all posted on her website!!!

---------- Post added at 08:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 PM ----------

When I get done showing my dog and he gets his CGC etc, you can add another to MiramontMastiffs list :)
 
bellemastiff

bellemastiff

Member
futureowner,

Thanks for that info -- yes, I just go by what's on the website. So please take the list with the grain of salt as it's info I could gather from the 'Net.

Sorry also around any confusion of what the list is. Here's the skinny.

1. In general I think there are a lot of mastiffs out there who are overly shy and fearful.

2. I am looking for a mastiff breeder who breeds for temperament and working ability. Basically a mastiff with enough nerve and sound temperament, that they can do therapy work or obedience work, not be nervous in public, etc.

3. I believe temperament and nerve have a heavy genetic component. Socialization gets you far, but only so far. If dam and sire are nervous dogs, their pups will probably be nervous. On the other hand if a dam and sire both have good temperament, there's a good probability that many of their pups will, too (even though there's always some variation within a litter).

4. A related problem: Pretty much every mastiff breeder, whether bad, good, great, or backyard, claims to breed for temperament and working ability. But obviously not all of them do (see point 1.)

5. So, going by my motto 'trust but verify', I'm making a list of englishmastiff breeders, that have multiple dogs/bitches that they breed, with CGC or TT certs and/or CD, CDX, RN, TDI titles. Essentially I am using these titles/certs, as objective evidence of good temperament of the dogs being bred.
 
futureowner

futureowner

Well-Known Member
bellemastiff said:
futureowner,

Thanks for that info -- yes, I just go by what's on the website. So please take the list with the grain of salt as it's info I could gather from the 'Net.

Sorry also around any confusion of what the list is. Here's the skinny.

1. In general I think there are a lot of mastiffs out there who are overly shy and fearful.

2. I am looking for a mastiff breeder who breeds for temperament and working ability. Basically a mastiff with enough nerve and sound temperament, that they can do therapy work or obedience work, not be nervous in public, etc.

3. I believe temperament and nerve have a heavy genetic component. Socialization gets you far, but only so far. If dam and sire are nervous dogs, their pups will probably be nervous. On the other hand if a dam and sire both have good temperament, there's a good probability that many of their pups will, too (even though there's always some variation within a litter).

4. A related problem: Pretty much every mastiff breeder, whether bad, good, great, or backyard, claims to breed for temperament and working ability. But obviously not all of them do (see point 1.)

5. So, going by my motto 'trust but verify', I'm making a list of englishmastiff breeders, that have multiple dogs/bitches that they breed, with CGC or TT certs and/or CD, CDX, RN, TDI titles. Essentially I am using these titles/certs, as objective evidence of good temperament of the dogs being bred.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, I especially love the ones that say they are raised in our home with our children, etc but then they have pictures or you find out that they aren't in the home at all or ever!! I can personally vouch for MiramontMastiffs as she is who I am getting my baby from and her females are not shy at all! Blossom (my pups mom) even let us hold her pups in front of her with no problems :) I know Beowulf is reputable because she has the sire to my pup and he is :
Grand Seiger Award Multi BIS / BISS Am Can Intl Ch Beowulfs Rockin The Boat CGC Anchor


Click this link to see all the CGC she has listed :
http://beowulfmastiffs.com/page/And-The-Winner-Is
Also check out Lamars Mastiffs


---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

I like you, want my baby to grow up and be a therapy dog :) We searched alot of breeders to find him!!
 
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