Breeder vs Puppy Mill what's different ??

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by Countrygirl, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. Tiger12490

    Tiger12490 Well-Known Member

    Haha touché :) I definitely am not putting it down I like testing and will be getting my buddy xrayed. I just don't want someone to over look a breeder who meets all the other criteria but doesnt health test.. because there are a ton of good breeders who do great things for dogs and have never looked at an xray

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  2. Kujo

    Kujo Well-Known Member

    Interesting...well my curious bug has been satisfied :)

    And please don't misunderstand me, I completely understand doing something simply because you love it, I was just curious if money was another reason for showing.
     
  3. Geisthexe

    Geisthexe Banned

    Nothing to misunderstand it's all great questions and there might have been others thinking the same :)
     
  4. JacksTheDog

    JacksTheDog Well-Known Member

    I generated these questions because I am looking to the future, my future. I love my dogs and when I retire form saving the world would love to be able to breed and train dogs I have never been a fan of dog shows and do not foresee myself getting into showing myself. I do however love my dogs and if were to breed would want to do it responsibly and in the best interests of the breed but from reading the requirements it seems that as a genuine dog fanatic and responsible individual if I do not have a vested interest in showing than I can count myself out of being a responsible breeder.
     
  5. mx5055

    mx5055 Well-Known Member

    I don't think that's necessarily true...there are other ways to work your dogs and highlight them in different ways...Personally, years ago, before my kids were born, we showed and bred boxers. I hated the showing...I found it very political and biased...Luckily we used a handler, and while my husband went to every single show our dogs were entered in....after the first year I opted out of attending any...I hated it...had nothing to do with how much I loved my dogs. If this is your dream, you could get a handler, and find ways of not being so personally involved......
     
  6. Geisthexe

    Geisthexe Banned

    Finding a handler is a great idea as long as you are only staying in AKC
    If you get a breed that is a UKC breed and not in the AKC then you cannot HIRE (money exchanged) to show your animals. It is against the UKC rules. Others can show your dogs for you just cannot get PAID
    Just wanted to point that out
     
  7. Cody

    Cody Well-Known Member

    Absolutely! I am not a fan of showing myself. I handle Aurora mainly for practice, but others handle Black Jack for me. Be it friends or a professional handler. They are sensitive dogs, so he knows I do not like it and it affects him in the rings as well. Although at the last show I did handle him in group as his handler had 4 different breeds that made it in working group and he was on his specials male Rottie. There are a lot of politics and BS at shows and to be honest many "show" people will stab you in the back at the first opportunity, slander the dogs winning. Those however are usually the ones that aren't making it into group ring. The drama really holds no interest for me. I prefer to be at the hospital with Aurora visiting the kids or mucking around the arena doing agility with Black Jack. That said I will pay my dues for the breed I love, regardless how I personally feel about it.
     
  8. mx5055

    mx5055 Well-Known Member

    We only dealt with AKC, so I did not know this. Learn something new here everyday :)
     
  9. Geisthexe

    Geisthexe Banned

    I hear ya .. I use to handle many dogs in the UKC and damn if I didn't get paid lol yeah it's in there rule book, after I became a judge I had to co-own to handle the dog after that :(
     
  10. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    I like the UKC's rule, I think that there are far to many people that use handlers that are known to the judge just to get a championship on a dog that likely would not have finished or taken a long time. I know that is the argument in the AKC and CKC now that if you aren't using a handler then you aren't likely to place but I have complete respect for those owner/handlers that still go out there and give it their all. We had a situation here a couple of years ago where the big handler in our area ended up with 5 dogs in the BIS ring and didn't have one in the working group so that could have been the reason for not having 6 in the group. I find it a shame that the politics like that exist between the judges and handlers, it should be on the merit of the dog and not who is on the end of the leash. There are too many people that look for handlers that are known to the judges just to finish a dog. I have no problem if the dog that places is a better dog and will congratulate them, I have lost to some nice dogs here on the east coast but losing to a handler is just politics and is often why you will get people not showing.
     
  11. Cody

    Cody Well-Known Member

    Have you shown CKC? I thought that CFC was similar to UKC in the rules, but you have used a handler to show Danae haven't you? It is true, there are definitely politics in play. That being said in our first show here we were the only ones NOT on professional handlers and still Black Jack swept the weekend and made the cut in group, with, I may add, some of the top dogs in Canada :) I have gone both ways, and in fact the only time, so far, that Black Jack has lost a show he was on a well known handler. I agree though, I would love to have all the dogs that are shown here be shown by amateur handlers. It would even the playing field. I have also seen dogs here on professional handlers that have been showing for a year and have yet to finish, so it is not always the handler that wins it.
     
  12. BlackShadowCaneCorso

    BlackShadowCaneCorso Super Moderator Staff Member

    No Cody we have not yet shown CKC with our dogs but Cane Corso weren't my first breed so before the corso was able to show CKC I got to see the handler politics. Danae has her CFC Championship so I doubt we will take her out in the CKC and the puppies will be heading out this year probably Mayish but perhaps I will wait until their health screens are done. The CFC allows handlers, at least as far as I know there are no rules not allowing it although most do not attend and you are right when I took my 8 month old daughter to the show I used an acquaintance's daughter that was saving up for Nationals (they as juniors can only take donations for their trip so I was happy to help her out and not have to worry about my daughter causing an issue when mama was in the ring) as my handler and she did beautiful! Think she was 16 or 17 at the time and the experience was great for her as part of her portfolio. Otherwise she was handled by me, and not as nicely but we finished her Championship and have I think one card towards her elite if we chose to continue. You are also correct that the handlers don't always win but I would say that is less often the case you said yourself that your handler had 4 of his clients in the ring at once. To each their own but I like the rules the UKC has as I think it makes it more about the dog, to each their own.
     
  13. Cody

    Cody Well-Known Member

    Absolutely, would be great if that was the reality. Still it is the tool at hand and should be utilized. As was written on another forum would be nice to see not only the Ch but how long they took to be achieved, I do think that says something. If a dog is out for a year or more and has no to very few pts is it truly show quality?
     
  14. SavingGrace

    SavingGrace Well-Known Member

    This is a great thread!!! Very informative!! Regarding the health testing comments - I only purchase dogs for companion, I do lots of training with them, but I absolutely want to see they are health tested and find that very important to me as a consumer, who has experienced the heartache of unknowingly purchasing a sick dog. Many breeders state their purpose is to better the breed, well what can be better than being sure you produce healthy dogs? Without testing, how are you sure if you didn't? We all know that various health issues come up in lines of dogs that may not have come up before, which is why there are always scientists working on new things to test for that are relevant to a particular breed. Many of us also know the heartache in purchasing a puppy with health issues that were misrepresented or not tested for. Health testing gives assurance to us consumers, and it does promote healthy breeding. The difference I find between an ethical breeder and any other breeder is to not only do health testing, but remove dogs from the breeding program that have produced health issues that would be considered genetic, congenital or hereditary. Only the qualities that would be considered the best interest of the breed should be bred for. Anyone else, is simply looking for financial gain. Regarding showing, there are breeders in my area who have won titles simply because there was no one in their group to compete with. For my dollar, I place more stock in health testing, and a solid guarantee.

    Part of the reason I picked the Eurasier as our 2nd dog was because of their strict rules in breeding. They are a small club, and the breed is very rare in the US - which is why as a club, they can monitor these rules and why every Eurasier you buy in the US has been tested, with proven bloodlines, approved by the club and not overbred or inbred. When dealing with more popular breeds, like the Corso, I think it's up to us, as consumers - to set the bar a little higher to help remove some of these puppy mills and BYB's from the picture - so that when we do our research and invest so much emotionally and monetarily, we're getting a healthy companion.

    I'll step off my soap box now :)
     
  15. Cody

    Cody Well-Known Member

    Even with extensive health testing NO breeder can be SURE that they will not produce a dog with genetic issues/ailments. Genetics is a crap shoot really. You can pair up 2 dogs with outstanding hips and other scores and still produce a dog that is dysplastic at 12 months. There was a study done in Holland I believe testing the hips of 240 dogs with various pairings and the results were very interesting. Some of the best scoring dogs came out of parents that were HDB and HDC (HDC being dysplastic) I will try to get the chart off my other computer. But what where do you draw the line of what you would remove from a breeding program? Hips? Elbows? Cardiac? Thyroid? I asked this question in another thread, what about serious allergies? And how honest are breeders really? Would they inform the prospective puppy parent if there was an issue such as allergies in one of the parents? As there is no official testing for it, it is easy to hide ;) The rest can be checked, one can ask to see results...
     
  16. SavingGrace

    SavingGrace Well-Known Member

    As I said, I'm a fan of health testing, however I also am reasonable enough to understand that issues can pop up at any time even if the parents do not have those issues. However, I personally would remove a dog from the breeding program if I knew it produced something that had a known genetic defect OR congenital disorders, which is NOT limited to hips. I would expect any breeder I am willing to work with to feel the same. There are a lot of dishonest breeders who do hide issues, even smaller ones like allergies - the point was - let's help the good breeders, who are breeding for the right reasons, by being more knowledgeable and demanding more as consumers.
     
  17. Duetsche_Doggen

    Duetsche_Doggen Well-Known Member

    I would say a very small percentage of breeders are "honest" their human, "honestly" goes only as far as the individual is willing to go. I "judge" a breeder by their dogs. Meaning the dogs will speak for themselves. I'd rather have a displastic pup who still has active at a ripe old age then a dog with "excellent" or "good" hips that is sensitive to the touch. Health testing and temp are far more important me than working or show titles. However I do now that with breeding NOTHING is guaranteed breeders and show/working people can speculate but until it happens and results show its pretty much a gamble.

    If the tools are there I would prefere that a breeder I use utilize those tools, however I know for other "rare" breeds its not possibe. Just depends on the situation.
     
  18. Geisthexe

    Geisthexe Banned

    DD so someone who has put multiple working titles on dogs that doesn't show you a good stable breeding?
    So let say someone (using Malinois) like Michael Ellis who has proven his dogs lines that he created to be stable, drivey, healthly, titled parents thru lineage and pretty much (depending on owner) can take his line and know it will work. You don't see that as a good or should I say excellent breeder of the breed? Just curious

    I agree nothing is guaranteed, nothing in life is, we has humans take chances daily.

    About rare breeds well I have to say in most countries (defiantly not all) can title there dogs in working (say bite work) more and more countries are creating Mollosser competitions bc they are not allowed overseas (except a very few countries) in Schutzhund.
    ABDs took there stuff from here and now have it in many countries. Along with the Presa who has 3 tournaments a year in Spain & Madrid. Here we are blessed that we can trial any breed in any sport or working environment. Minus like SnR where it depends on the location that will allow a mastiff to do this.

    Anyway, thought I'd ask ya

    Thanks in advance
     
  19. cwayaustx

    cwayaustx Banned

    Didn't read all the answers but there is a huge difference in an ethical breeder and a puppy mill. The main one being the breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed. The mill could give two shits about the breed or the piss poor pups they're throwing..
     
  20. thelady_v2010

    thelady_v2010 Well-Known Member

    Interesting conversation. I have gotten flack because I got my pup from a pet store, thus I support puppy mills. I knew when I got him that he would not a perfect specimen, that he would not have been in a pet store if he were closer to what ever the breeder wanted in a dog. He isn't papered and I overpaid for him. But, I fell in love with him. Not his breed, not a pure bred, etc. After I saw him the 1st time, I researched and researched, even tried to find a rescue that I could fall in love with, but I kept going back to see him and I loved him more and more each time. I wanted a calm, mellow, not aggressive, smart puppy. I have had him just under 3 weeks, and so far, I was exactly right to pick him! At times I wish he were better bred, or not a puppy m ill puppy, but that is more for MY bragging rights. When i get to go home to him, I am happy he is him.
     

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