Breed Standards

[Cody]

Found this quote, and as at times there are some debates about breed standards I thought I would share it. It sums up the importance of standards pretty good IMO; "If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well. Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything"...Catherine McMillan

 

[DDBsR4Me]

Couldn't agree more!

I'm so sick of seeing what is happening with DDBs here in the US. I'm just disgusted!

 

[chuckorlando]

I agree to a point. Though the loo is secondary to the temp. When any of these breeds came to be, the only thing not considered was how they looked. Breeding for looks alone or even first can lead to a pretty mess. But disregarding looks will lead to a ugly mess

 

[Cody]

I agree to a point. Though the loo is secondary to the temp. When any of these breeds came to be, the only thing not considered was how they looked. Breeding for looks alone or even first can lead to a pretty mess. But disregarding looks will lead to a ugly mess

Okay, if there was a dog who the owners called a Fila, had the correct temperament but had none of the correct physical traits of a Fila is it a Fila? Wouldn't you rather that the dogs have it all Chuck? The look and the temperament correct to the breed? In the CC for example there was a woman selling pie bald pups claiming that they were purebred papered CC. The pie bald gene is not carried by the Corso, there fore these dogs were not pure bred period. Just a question. We don't have enough standard debates lol.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I agree with Chuck. I believe "breed standards" have their place BUT when judging dogs at shows anyone opinion is as good as the next person.

What do you think about "breed types?" All dogs below are based off the same "breed standard"

Who's "right" :/

"French/Russian dog"



"American"




"Hungary"

 

[joshuagough]

I know the Fila isn't recognized by the AKC but who produces the standard for it? I would agree the total package is needed.

Temperment is usually called out in the standard - hence the EM below per the AKC.

Temperament
A combination of grandeur and good nature, courage and docility. Dignity, rather than gaiety, is the Mastiff's correct demeanor. Judges should not condone shyness or viciousness. Conversely, judges should also beware of putting a premium on showiness

Okay, if there was a dog who the owners called a Fila, had the correct temperament but had none of the correct physical traits of a Fila is it a Fila? Wouldn't you rather that the dogs have it all Chuck? The look and the temperament correct to the breed? In the CC for example there was a woman selling pie bald pups claiming that they were purebred papered CC. The pie bald gene is not carried by the Corso, there fore these dogs were not pure bred period. Just a question. We don't have enough standard debates lol.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Now if we could just get the judges to pay attention to temperment in the ring instead of automatically prefering the showier dog....

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Ruth curious are the TM's getting more "lion" like now?

 

[ruthcatrin]

ask me again after westminster, but it looks like it, at least in general

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Ok, just curious. There was a couple I spoke with who were looking into TM's they pulled a picture, I don't know TM's but this one was more "wooley" but not quite overdone, like you and MM showed us. Wondering if its starting to become a trend like the "European" Dane.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I'm surprised there hasn't been already to be honest :/ I guess teh breed wasn't popular enough before.....

 

[WalnutCrest]

<snip>

I believe "breed standards" have their place BUT when judging dogs at shows anyone opinion is as good as the next person.

<snip>

I disagree completely.

Not every person can make a great souffle, or bottle a great wine. Not every person can look at an animal in motion, profile, head-on or in repose and have as intimate understanding of whether or not the animal in question is a good representative of the breed.

Similarly, some people have higher standards for excellence (and the pursuit thereof) than others. I'm not going to listen to someone with lower standards than I about the quality of a particular animal.

Not every opinion has equal validity.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I disagree completely.

Not every person can make a great souffle, or bottle a great wine. Not every person can look at an animal in motion, profile, head-on or in repose and have as intimate understanding of whether or not the animal in question is a good representative of the breed.

Similarly, some people have higher standards for excellence (and the pursuit thereof) than others. I'm not going to listen to someone with lower standards than I about the quality of a particular animal.

Not every opinion has equal validity.

Thanks for proving my point, Hillcrest perfect example.

 

[chuckorlando]

I think I have said enough times "if it looks like and acts like" to not even really need to answer that, but I will. Of coarse it must look like a fila. How would it be a fila if it dont even look like a fila? But if it takes an angle finder, straight edge, and level to to tell me how good or bad a dog is, I could care less. What ever standard you go with is just some dudes opinion pulled out of thin air to begin with. I dont care what height range you give a cc, you go back in time, I bet they are bigger and smaller. Bet there longer and shorter. Bigger headed, smaller headed. What ever standard, is the person writing it's idea of a cc to start. Why is it ok to explain away soft temp as the dogs back then were not social, but the look of a dog is so important? 75% of the breeds are no where near what they were temp wise for exactly this thinking.... And the rest of them a plagued with show ponies. And even inside the groups that claim they are all about saving, there all about politics and looks

 

[chuckorlando]

I mean who would pass up the best of both worlds? Thats not what you hear or find... Oh I need to fix his head.... If dogs were judged on their real merits at their real jobs no one would be looking at his head. But the only thing we care about is what it looks like as a society. The single aspect most people dont want around here, is a hard dog. We all want to think they can get hard, just long as they aint hard

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

I would be curious to know how exactly a judge is meant to judge temperament in the TM for example. What would be the standard for a TM temperament wise? Like with all dogs you have softer and harder temperaments....I am not including the Fila here, they are a stand alone IMO. But with a TM what would be the breed standard temperament wise? This is a breed that will react when they feel threatened, but are otherwise aloof, aware and without fear. Mooshi is harder than Apollo, put them in the ring together and how do you compare the two? How do you test them when one is less inclined to react than the other? How do you get them to react? Plain and simple how do you temperament test a TM?

 

[ruthcatrin]

You don't, but they shouldn't be "perky" and "showy" in the ring either....

 

[chuckorlando]

There has to be a temp for the breed. In the standard at that. Even fila are soft to hard. I bet they always was as well. But they have a job none the less and you would judge the on the ability to do that job. If a TM should protect when threatened you could test them like a fila. Run at you with a stick yelling. If the dog should heard, lets see them heard. etc.... This is more for the breeder then the owner though

 

[NYDDB]

You don't, but they shouldn't be "perky" and "showy" in the ring either....

And yet, I believe there is a desire for that "perky/showy" trait to show off in the ring...even if it's an unconscious thing. The crowds (at least at Westminster, the only show I've attended)- always respond to the ones that "strut" and show off.

Which is why, maybe, some of the giants don't walk away with the Best in Show; the Saints, Mastiffs, et. al. lumber and move in a ponderous manner, and are not, by nature "perky."

It just seems like a bias, to me.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

well thankfully I have never seen a perky or showy TM! if my girl is anything to go by and based breed standard on then she should have taken BOB for sure rather than the below standard in physical appearance male that the judge gave it to. she is not a 'show' dog in the typical sense but she is a typical TM in every sense, including attitude and if that was truly a consideration then the judge would have forgiven her not wanting to 'perform' yet again, accepted it as a trait of the breed and taken the whole package in to consideration. In fact, IMO, her refusal of performance should have been a positive and a bonus as a true representation of the breed as it should be and as described in many TM standards. But sadly too many people are more concerned with their own reputation, politics and media pressure to produce and present a dog that is just like the next rather than promoting the individuality of each breed. A friend of mine is bringing one of her dogs out of retirement because there is such a poor representation of the breed out there at the moment that she is ashamed for the reputation of the TM. Its a shame we cant include and have an equal amount of consideration go towards temperament or attitude as we do to looks. And make it a standard part of the show world rather than just produce robot after robot.