Boerboel Pup Distraction Index (DI)

[Mike - Syris]

Hi guys,

New to the forum so apologies if this has been asked (Im sure it has).

My 15 Week Old Boerboel Pup Syris had his Pennhip exam earlier this week. His DI score come back at 0.6 and our vet has referred us a specialist to discuss Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis (JPS), ive spoken to the Vet about his score and regardless of breed they refer when the score is higher then 0.3.

We got the Pennhip exam done under the recommendation of our Vet due to his breed, we spoke with the breeder about the results which they were suprised with but admitted they dont usually get the exam in their pups done untill after a year.

We only have until Syris is 20 weeks to complete the surgery, so i thought id reach out to some more experienced owners of Boerboels like yourselves to ask if its worth it and has any other owners been in this situation and either gone ahead with surgery or not and what was outcome.

We are torn in the sence that we don't want to put Syris through any unnecessary procedures if we don't need too as there is still no evidence of Degeneration of the Joint only laxity but as hes still very young its possibly to early to show signs of degeneration.

Any help would be appreciated.

Syris is an offspring of Targus Ram (Targus Boerboels).

Syris Stats:
Male (Not Desexed)
15 Weeks Old
44lbs - 20kg

 

[Boxergirl]

I don't know much about this procedure other than it's supposed to be minimally invasive and have decent results. That's just from what my daughter says from a veterinary perspective. I hope someone here has actual experience with this and can give you an opinion. Wishing you the best of luck. Post a picture for us. I'd love to see him.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Demanding a score lower than .30 is ridiculous. When my AB went for his BST they required a Pennhip score of .50 or below. There probably wasn't a single AB in the country that had both hips below .30. If an AB had both hips in the mid to low 30's he was truly exceptional.

.6 is rather high, but he's just a puppy. I would give it some time if it were me.

 

[Boxergirl]

Loverboy Skyline, how long ago was this? Recently? I was wondering if guidelines had changed over the years as more research was done? Also, is there a down side to the procedure? Other than that it's surgery and costs money? Just trying to learn and get more info out there for anyone lurking.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Loverboy Skyline, how long ago was this? Recently? I was wondering if guidelines had changed over the years as more research was done? Also, is there a down side to the procedure? Other than that it's surgery and costs money? Just trying to learn and get more info out there for anyone lurking.

This was in the mid 90's so it was a while ago. It's an alternative to OFA. The test gives you a number from 0 to 1 for each hip. A score of 0 is perfect but impossible. It means the hip joint is entirely in the socket. I've heard of numbers in the 20's for a dog that's really tight. Lowest I've seen for AB's is in the low 30's and that was very rare.

 

[Boxergirl]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I know what pennhip is and what the numbers mean. I was wondering about the procedure. Have the guidelines changed for when the procedure is recommended since the 90's?

 

[marke]

My 15 Week Old Boerboel Pup Syris had his Pennhip exam earlier this week. His DI score come back at 0.6 and our vet has referred us a specialist to discuss Juvenile Pubic Symphysiodesis (JPS), ive spoken to the Vet about his score and regardless of breed they refer when the score is higher then 0.3.

We got the Pennhip exam done under the recommendation of our Vet due to his breed, we spoke with the breeder about the results which they were suprised with but admitted they dont usually get the exam in their pups done untill after a year.

We only have until Syris is 20 weeks to complete the surgery, so i thought id reach out to some more experienced owners of Boerboels like yourselves to ask if its worth it and has any other owners been in this situation and either gone ahead with surgery or not and what was outcome.


Syris is an offspring of Targus Ram (Targus Boerboels).

Syris Stats:
Male (Not Desexed)
15 Weeks Old
44lbs - 20kg

do you have the hip extended portion of the pennhip you could post ? personally I wouldn't consider any medical intervention base solely on a ph score of .6 ……. if the hip is otherwise normal , i'd be exercising that puppy for as long as I had time to ……… proper exercise , low impact , low torque exercise ….. walking , walking , walking and more walking , up hills , up stairs ……I known folks weightpulled their dogs seriously , they would start drag pulling with light chains at 3-4 months , you can overwork a pup doing that , you can't overwalk a pup … free range pups have better hips , most folks can't have free range pups …… the more a pup uses it legs the better , they need kept strong for their entire growth period , so they are strong enough for the weight gains they make …… a pennhip is a measure of passive laxity , passive laxity is not functional laxity , the muscles do hold the joint together , which is why strength is important ……..

I've raised a whole lot of dogs with excessive laxity , this guy lived to 12yrs and died from cancer...…..

 

[Boxergirl]

So glad you replied, Marke. I know you have a lot of experience in this area.

 

[marke]

I've spent a lot of time and effort on this subject , I've bred a very dysplastic breed …….. and I would like to restate , you can overwalk a pup , you can't if you let them walk you …… i'd take my pups in the wood and follow them for miles , i'd quit before them ……… a 6 week wolf pup can walk a couple miles , a 3 month old wolf pup can walk trot 10 miles a day easily , dogs are not wolves , but I think it's something worth noting ……..I haven't paid attention to pennhip median scores in years , but I do know when I did there were many breeds that would "pass" pennhips criteria as breedable with a score of .6 and greater ……. there were many breeds with medians above .6 …….. my opinion is a more important trait is acetabular depth ….. the hip needs to remain congruent while developing , pennhip believes that the tighter the hip the better the acetabulum will form ……. personally I've seen dogs in the .3's with shallow acetabulum , and I've seen many dogs with extremely lax hips with deep clean acetabulum ……….. noone would argue tighter is better , but also the deeper the acetabulum the better …….. comes down to impact , imo surface area of contact is a bigger factor in force applied than the minute distance involved in passive laxity which is even smaller when considering functional laxity ……….. which is why all those breeds with pennhips over .6 are not crippled …… if i'm not mistaken , I believe the basis of the procedure your talking about is surface area of contact ……… which is why the conformation of the joint is as important the passive laxity score ….. jmo

 

[Mike - Syris]

I don't know much about this procedure other than it's supposed to be minimally invasive and have decent results. That's just from what my daughter says from a veterinary perspective. I hope someone here has actual experience with this and can give you an opinion. Wishing you the best of luck. Post a picture for us. I'd love to see him.

Here are a few pics of Syris

 

[Mike - Syris]

do you have the hip extended portion of the pennhip you could post ? personally I wouldn't consider any medical intervention base solely on a ph score of .6 ……. if the hip is otherwise normal , i'd be exercising that puppy for as long as I had time to ……… proper exercise , low impact , low torque exercise ….. walking , walking , walking and more walking , up hills , up stairs ……I known folks weightpulled their dogs seriously , they would start drag pulling with light chains at 3-4 months , you can overwork a pup doing that , you can't overwalk a pup … free range pups have better hips , most folks can't have free range pups …… the more a pup uses it legs the better , they need kept strong for their entire growth period , so they are strong enough for the weight gains they make …… a pennhip is a measure of passive laxity , passive laxity is not functional laxity , the muscles do hold the joint together , which is why strength is important ……..

I've raised a whole lot of dogs with excessive laxity , this guy lived to 12yrs and died from cancer...…..

No i dont have the Xrays but ive requested them, hopefully ill get them tomorrow which ill post up.

I understand what you're saying which is why we are very hesitant to do any procedure. We have the specialist appointment tomorrow which ill be asking a list of questions and hopefully we get a clearer picture. Hopefully this specialist knows what they are talking about and just doesn't look at it like theres a problem heres the fix now pay me type approach which is probably wishful thinking on my behalf

 

[Mike - Syris]

This is the Sire and Dame of Syris - both massive but Sire is really something special

 

[marke]

your pennhip cert should tell you where your dog ranks as far as percentile ? one fact i learned , dysplastic and a problem are often not related …….

 

[marke]

and personally i wouldn't neuter him unless it was a problem , and then i'd wait till it was a problem .........

 

[Boxergirl]

That's a gorgeous pup. Please keep posting as he grows.

 

[Loverboy Skyline]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I know what pennhip is and what the numbers mean. I was wondering about the procedure. Have the guidelines changed for when the procedure is recommended since the 90's?

On their website it says the ownership changed in 2013. That could mean certain changes to go along with it, but I see no mention of changes to the procedure and it reads just like it did several years ago.

 

[Mike - Syris]

do you have the hip extended portion of the pennhip you could post ? personally I wouldn't consider any medical intervention base solely on a ph score of .6 ……. if the hip is otherwise normal , i'd be exercising that puppy for as long as I had time to ……… proper exercise , low impact , low torque exercise ….. walking , walking , walking and more walking , up hills , up stairs ……I known folks weightpulled their dogs seriously , they would start drag pulling with light chains at 3-4 months , you can overwork a pup doing that , you can't overwalk a pup … free range pups have better hips , most folks can't have free range pups …… the more a pup uses it legs the better , they need kept strong for their entire growth period , so they are strong enough for the weight gains they make …… a pennhip is a measure of passive laxity , passive laxity is not functional laxity , the muscles do hold the joint together , which is why strength is important ……..

I've raised a whole lot of dogs with excessive laxity , this guy lived to 12yrs and died from cancer...…..

Syris Xrays

 

[marke]

when I saw the x-rays , first thing I thought was that is a young dog , I never thought about the fact you said it was 15 weeks …. I have to tell you I haven't looked at a lot of 15 week puppy x-rays , I don't think it's usual to x-ray 15 week puppies …….. I can't tell what the first pic is , the second appears hip extended , while I haven't seen many , I don't think what's there is that abnormal or abnormal at all for a pup this age ……. if the third is distraction , it actually strikes me as not bad …… i'm guessing the last is the compression ? I do have this pic of normal development of a dogs hip by weeks… I got to say if they want to do something with this pup , i'd get a second opinion ………...

 

[marke]

have you talked to the breeder ?

 

[Mike - Syris]

have you talked to the breeder ?

Yes we have, they don't get hips examined untill after 12 months but they did admit that the only do this to see if they are suitable for their breeding programme.

We got these Xrays done under the Vets advice, they seem to recommend this for all giant breeds.