Bad news, good news?

[Rugers-Kris]

I think the issue is that it is hard to believe someone with as much knowledge as you have, left a bitch in heat in a crate with an intact male in the same room. That is an assumption on my part as I can only speak for myself but I think that would make sense. Odi is still a baby, isn't he? I also agree with Ab that finding good homes for them and being honest about the possibilities and not making money off of them is the way to go. I am late to the thread but I am not understanding why you are 90% sure she is pregnant? I don't see any mention of the vet. Has she not been in to see one since this mating?

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Well, congrats! I hope you keep at least one puppy.

 

[DMikeM]

Odi was 12 months old at the time. I had closed the door behind me but my house is crooked from the earthquakes and the doors don't always latch well. The pups will be entered into a service dog program that Jade's breeder is trying to develop. I doubt I will keep any for myself but one never knows.
99% sure now since she is growing so much, and she is producing milk. She has not been to the vet except for weight check and heart check. At the time the vet could not say if she was pregnant. She will see a vet on Monday next week I think.

 

[DMikeM]

I did check out some other methods that may cause an abortion and even tried the parsley and Black Cohosh the first week as recommended but it appears to not have worked. I don't like using chemicals or doing elective surgery on them. What other methods are there, I would like to research them just in case an issue arises in the future?

I did not submit those xrays to because I never intended to mate her and did not wish to spend the money and felt if anyone needed to ask we could contact my vet as they keep the records on file. Anyone can submit a bad or good xray, technicians can and do make mistakes even the ones employed by the specialists. Oh and my vets are OFA and PennHipp certified.
For her heart, two general practice vets said Jade might have had a murmur but a specialist said they were reading the second valve as a bad beat and that she was fine.

Okay I will buy not wanting to take the risks on mis-mating shots although most do not use the shot but other methods to abort puppies these days with far few risks, but why avoid the spay if you are planning to spay her later anyway? Also if you spent the time having the x-rays checked by 3 different vets why did you not send to OFA to have them certified, they are specialist that are used to looking at them all the time, your vet*s x-rays could have been sent easily I believe they only need a registration number, micro-chip or tattoo number and the X-rays but it has been a bit since I completed the paperwork as my vet keeps our stuff on file. Were the hips certified by OFA or PennHip? Was the heart? I understand saying these things were checked but unless they are done by specialists then things can be missed, they have been several times by General Practitioner vets several times with breeder friends of mine.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Odi was 12 months old at the time. I had closed the door behind me but my house is crooked from the earthquakes and the doors don't always latch well. The pups will be entered into a service dog program that Jade's breeder is trying to develop. I doubt I will keep any for myself but one never knows.
99% sure now since she is growing so much, and she is producing milk. She has not been to the vet except for weight check and heart check. At the time the vet could not say if she was pregnant. She will see a vet on Monday next week I think.

I'm sorry I didn't see the mention of a second door just the crate was used. How far along is she supposed to be as I have only had bitches produce milk a week or at max 2 before due and at that point she should have had some vet care to ensure a safe delivery. What type of service dog program? Guardian breeds do not typically make good services dogs to a more protective nature (there are expections to the rule) but certainly not a litter of them?

I did check out some other methods that may cause an abortion and even tried the parsley and Black Cohosh the first week as recommended but it appears to not have worked. I don't like using chemicals or doing elective surgery on them. What other methods are there, I would like to research them just in case an issue arises in the future?

I did not submit those xrays to because I never intended to mate her and did not wish to spend the money and felt if anyone needed to ask we could contact my vet as they keep the records on file. Anyone can submit a bad or good xray, technicians can and do make mistakes even the ones employed by the specialists. Oh and my vets are OFA and PennHipp certified.
For her heart, two general practice vets said Jade might have had a murmur but a specialist said they were reading the second valve as a bad beat and that she was fine.

The methods that you discounted all involved, not "natural" methods which I do not believe show positive implications of working. I also don't consider a female that has been caught by my male an elective surgery, I consider that a necessary surgery now if I had no intentions of breeding said female.

The cost of submitting those xrays after taken is peanuts, I think $60.00 Canadian at the most after you have paid to have 3 separate opinions I would not think that is something too expensive to pay for. OFA and PennHip certified, what exactly does that mean? You do not need to be certified anything to perform OFA x-rays just have a basic knowledge of how to take a proper hips shot, and while you need special training to do the PennHip because you have to take 3 exacting shots, I have yet to meet a vet outside of the University that performs the measurements that can do anything more than guess. My vet has been doing both for years but would never "certify" his results as he is not a specialist. The same with Cardiologist, they are there for a reason, and if one vet said they thought they heard something like a murmer in my dogs I would be seeing one.

 

[DMikeM]

The service we want to do is for fallen heroes/vets. I know of several Boerboels in service work and many more with CGC certs. I also have a lady that said she will do the temperament test on the puppies. I forget what it is called but it is done on young pups to determine if they will be guard type dogs or soft dogs.

I mentioned certified because they have the stickers in the window that say so. The reasons I paid to have her xrayed was because she presented with a problem for both elbow and knee, so I had the hips checked as well just in case. Both times it turned out to be either Pano or injury.

As for the rest, I am done explaining. It is what it is and I will deal with it.

 

[AZ Boerboel]

Good luck with the litter, and only a little hand slap for the accidental breeding. After seeing Lucia escape from her crate 2 different ways, which is supposed to be escape proof, it isn't hard to believe one of them got it open for a little afternoon delight.
I hope they all come out healthy and go to good homes.
You might check into some of the Pets for Vets type programs that train dogs with/for Veterans as therapy animals to help them cope with ptsd and being lonely. Several of my friends have dogs from these kinds of groups and they really make a huge positive impact on both the Vet and the Dogs life. Given proper temperament of course.
Again, good luck with the litter. I hope she delivers safely and comes through ok. Have a great Thanksgiving!

 

[AZ Boerboel]

The service we want to do is for fallen heroes/vets. I know of several Boerboels in service work and many more with CGC certs. I also have a lady that said she will do the temperament test on the puppies. I forget what it is called but it is done on young pups to determine if they will be guard type dogs or soft dogs.

I mentioned certified because they have the stickers in the window that say so. The reasons I paid to have her xrayed was because she presented with a problem for both elbow and knee, so I had the hips checked as well just in case. Both times it turned out to be either Pano or injury.

As for the rest, I am done explaining. It is what it is and I will deal with it.

You posted while I was typing
I'm very happy to hear you are already looking at the Veteran therapy dog route. It truly makes a difference in our returning soldiers lives to have a good dog at their side. I can't think of a better dog for it than a Boerboel. I really hope they all work out for the task.

 

[Al and Julie]

Mike, shit happens I was exactly there 4 months ago. I didnt spay her or abort the puppies. Pure accidental breeding but will be more vigilant till she goes in for her spay. Please enjoy this time with them It broke my heart when they left for their forever homes. We made the choice of raising them and scanning people till we got the right homes. Good luck and keep us up to date.

 

[Tunride]

Mike will have to keep one of his grandbabies! Yep accidents do happen and the "morning after shot' is risky, a spay abortion is risky. If it was me, I would go thru with the unplanned litter. Congrats anyway.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I am not saying that BB can*t work in service work, I said that there are not many that are able to do so as it is generally against most of what would be deamed “correct†temperament for a guardian breed. There are a few therapy dogs that are corso (the largest number stemming from a particular line) but I would like say compared to the number of actual corso those that are capable of doing so are few and far between and certainly not a whole litter. Is Jade's personality one that would allow for this? Odie? Kiss Kiss, she is a full-sibling to Jade? Does she have any Service work under her belt that since her and Jade share genetics you think might make good Service dogs from this pairing. Being capable of doing the required x-rays does not always make one capable of giving the same level of expertise as a certified specialist.

Volhard? Is that the temperament test you mean? It is developed for labs to test for their temperament and categorized them for appropriate homes. While some aspects are great it is not overall a good indicator for guardian breeds so the evaluator I hope knows to compensate for that when testing as these certainly aren't labs. CGC are a test, they are something that can be trained for and many do, several class as you know in advance what your dog will face so it is easy enough to ensure the outcome.

I certainly hope Jade has a safe delivery Mike but I don't believe it was an accident despite what you wish others to believe. Also you claimed to not want to do elective surgery but claimed she was to be spayed next year then you will have to understand my lack of belief in not choosing to do so when you thought she might have been caught, what would be the difference now or next year. And before you say it was the risk, know that there is certainly no less risk to breeding a bitch and knowing that with each breeding you could lose that bitch due to a complication or the puppies or keeping a bitch intact for years running the risk of pyo because dogs hormones do not stop like they do for humans.

 

[DMikeM]

Odi has a perfect temperament for service work. Kiss Kiss (full littermate) is currently in Service dog training and excelling in class. I personally do not believe Jade is suited to be a service dog but my trainer does.

Yes she said Volhard and some other tests.

Believe what you want, you have already made your mind up so I won't bother to defend myself to you. If you can not take my word for it then we have no reason to even bother to communicate. I will say one last time. It was an unintended accidental breeding, I state my word on it on any Bible and would take a lie detector test to prove myself. I did not want puppies in my home and have no time for a litter of pups as I work 6 days a week 9.5 hours a day. Purposefully having a litter of pups during the winter would be a stupid choice for me to make and I am no stupid man, just one that made a mistake.

 

[DMikeM]

You posted while I was typing
I'm very happy to hear you are already looking at the Veteran therapy dog route. It truly makes a difference in our returning soldiers lives to have a good dog at their side. I can't think of a better dog for it than a Boerboel. I really hope they all work out for the task.

I have already contacted a Vets dog program and they do have some concerns over the protectiveness of the Boerboel in general. But they are willing to take a pup and try putting it through their program to test one out. As long as we can provide one with the required temperament then we will have a go ahead and maybe Jade's breeder can apply for a grant to open a center and produce these dogs. It will become a full time job for her and I and 2 others I think. We hope to find property in the high desert near Big Bear to build a proper facility. That will house a few vets at a time to teach and train them with their own dog and train them to be trainers as well.

 

[Penelope's Mom]

Are you keeping a pup, Mike?

 

[HayleyMarie]

So this is my thoughts on this subject. Intentional breeding or not I feel that Jade should of been altered as soon as you noticed the mating-since you did say that you where planning on doing it anyways. You should have made better precautions on keeping Odi away from Jade. I have heard of male going through doors and windows to get to a bitch in heat. IMO I feel that the BB does not make a good SD candidate, Therapy work yes, put not SD, and certainly not for people with PTSD. I can only see disaster happening. Plus this breeding did not have a plan or an end result. People who breed for SD have a plan and have a pairing that is compatible with each other and that will hopefully create the desired results. The way you have described Jades temperament does NOT sounds like a good SD dog. Nor, a dog that should be bred to create SD dogs. There are many breeds out there that do a great, proper job at being a SD, why fix something that is not broken. Why experiment with a powerful, protective breed to be a SD.

What happens when a person with PTSD has an episode in public, I feel that a BB will get defensive and in protective mode. What happens if a client blacks out, has a seizure.....

 

[PrinceLorde13]

Hey everyone makes mistakes the important part is what we do after. It seems like you're doing everything in your power to ensure the comfort and health of your dog and future puppies, so good for you on how you handled your mistake!

 

[DMikeM]

I don't plan on keeping a pup, but with the new BB org shake ups there are 3 new orgs. 1 is a carry over of the SABT into the new SABBS the 0ther 2 new ones are created to preserve the South African Mastiff breed as intended back in 1984. These 2 new orgs may have a developmental registry and I may be able to enter Jade as a Original Type Plaasboel (Farm Dog) or an Historic Boerboel Type dog. If I can do either I will be able to register and paper Jade and Odi in these orgs (one or the other). If I can do this it will be important for me to keep at least one breedable pair close to home to carry on the line, especially for Odi's blood line. I am not sure how it will work out but at least we won't be restricted by the new SABBS mind set that allows for crossbreeds and non boerboel (1984) standard colors and sizes.

 

[DMikeM]

The reason we want to try this is we spoke with a 10 disabled VETS and proposed this to them with a choice. Any other type SD currently available and a picture of a Boerboel with the explanation that this is a protective breed and we are trying to choose softer dogs to train to be SD's 5 of them wanted Boerboels in full glory not softer dogs 2 were women, the out of the other 5, four (3 men 1 woman) wanted Boerboels in a softer temperament and 1 lady wanted a GSD.

As for the rest.

But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane [you aren't alone]
In proving foresight may be vain: The best laid schemes o' mice an' men Gang aft a-gley, [often go awry] An' lea'e us nought but grief an'pain, yet for promised joy.

So this is my thoughts on this subject. Intentional breeding or not I feel that Jade should of been altered as soon as you noticed the mating-since you did say that you where planning on doing it anyways. You should have made better precautions on keeping Odi away from Jade. I have heard of male going through doors and windows to get to a bitch in heat. IMO I feel that the BB does not make a good SD candidate, Therapy work yes, put not SD, and certainly not for people with PTSD. I can only see disaster happening. Plus this breeding did not have a plan or an end result. People who breed for SD have a plan and have a pairing that is compatible with each other and that will hopefully create the desired results. The way you have described Jades temperament does NOT sounds like a good SD dog. Nor, a dog that should be bred to create SD dogs. There are many breeds out there that do a great, proper job at being a SD, why fix something that is not broken. Why experiment with a powerful, protective breed to be a SD.

What happens when a person with PTSD has an episode in public, I feel that a BB will get defensive and in protective mode. What happens if a client blacks out, has a seizure.....

 

[Al and Julie]

you made the decision for your dog she is yours. We all have opinions but we are not you and have no right to judge you. sorry just my opinion.

Sent from my U8666-51 using Tapatalk 2

 

[HayleyMarie]

Mike, I hardly see that as a legit or proper reason why you want boerboels as SD dogs for vets with PTSD, and I still don't agree with using boerboels. Do you even know what entails training a SD. I hardly see a boerboel with the correct temperament passing the public access test. Give the people what they need and not what they want. There is a reason these dogs are not for everyone. This is an experiment that can go horribly wrong. Your not only setting the dog up for failure you will be setting up his handler to fail as well.

Tell me reasons why a bb would make a good SD, because so far you have not given us any reasons why.