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Brady19

Well-Known Member
That was my point to begin with I take immediate action to correct behavior immediately. You can't allow a dog of this size to think it runs the home. You have to assert rules I have personally but my dog on his side but that was a specific situation and was done by myself to my dog. I also correct in many other ways. And I can understand your disagreement with some people on the other forum as many are just first time pet owners or not used to a breed as this. There are also people there that aren't breeding to enhance the breed they do so for profit. And I have run into people here that are not familiar with the breed or I feel always in the right. Yet there are some on both that I have very much respect for and some that are in the best interest for the breed. You just have to use caution when taking any advise. And I just feel in this certain discussion because I said I have laid my dog down and stated an owner should be the law setter and enforcer in essence taking the role of alpha. That I was instantly called abusive and ignorant and I may not have reacted in the best way but I know from experience dogs do understand some order to a social environment. I felt people were twisting and taking offense to my comments basically trying to be dominant and over powering. Doesn't really matter except that in certain dogs this approach of alpha a dog respects and often even feels safer and protected. The fact is whether we even see it this way or not our dogs should see us as the authority and respect or rules, if they don't people can and will get hurt, if this happens the breed may be put onto a ban list and it's my understanding being a breed just coming to light here it has already been put on this list in certain places

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Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Hey I haven't been on in a bit so I just saw all of this. Glad I could start this thread so that not only I am being educated, but Marke and Brady can too! Guys, I understand that this is what you have always been taught and that it can be hard to change old habits (I know because I'm experiencing it at this very moment); however, you definitely need to realize that the information being given to you makes a lot of sense. These people that are giving this information seem to be extremely knowledgeable in there fields and have scientific evidence/reputable sources to back it up. I agree with Hiraeth and his crew here that if I would have alpha rolled I could have been hurt. The first time it didn't result in that, but how many times could I chance it before I got seriously injured? There is much more going on here than just a dog that thinks he is alpha. He is unruly, bossy, and problematic all around. He needs positive training methods to build respect and admiration for his owners and I. Overall I would like to truly thank you guys for all the wonderful information.

To Boxergirl - It would actually be really nice to have some help locating a possible trainer in my area. I'm not sure what the decision of the owners will be at this moment when it comes to training, but it wouldn't hurt to know! Thank you so much!

P.S. To Brady - If you truly believe that telling me to leave a mastiff-specific forum full of professionals and turn to Facebook is good advice, then you need to rethink where you seek your information from. Facebook is full of wannabe dog trainers with a few good ones scattered out.

I'm glad you feel that way, Brandon. I'm a woman, by the way :p

I was once a very P+, dominance-based trainer myself. I don't say the things I say because I'm some sort of timid or soft-spoken female who thinks everything should be sunshine and rainbows, and that treats are the solution to all dog problems. I'm certainly not timid or soft-spoken - I have a CPL, I frequent the firing range, I recently made my first foray into bow hunting, and I am the first person who will speak up if I think someone is rude or disrespectful.

I saw the detrimental effect P+ training had on my dogs firsthand when I was in my early 20s. My timing for punishments was reasonably good, and yet those punishments weren't teaching my dogs much. They still misbehaved occasionally, did not enjoy training, and did not pick up on new tasks easily because they were afraid of doing things wrong. They wouldn't recall to me because they weren't sure if they'd get punished as soon as they returned.

I realized things weren't going as well as they could, and started doing some research. I came to understand that teaching a dog with punishment is like trying to effectively raise a human child by ignoring him, yelling at him, pinning him the ground, or slapping him in the face every time he does something wrong. Will the kid eventually learn? Maybe. Will the kid be intimidated, angry, and likely to lash out in anger in the future? Yes. Same with dogs. Behavioral studies prove that dogs who are trained with P+ techniques are far more likely to growl and bite their owners. One example:

Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs showing undesired behaviors, Journal of Applied Animal Behavioral Science, Jan. 2009 (http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/behavior/trainingArticle.pdf)

"Several confrontational methods such as ‘‘hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior’’ (43%), ‘‘growl at dog’’ (41%), ‘‘physically force the release of an item from a dog’s mouth’’ (39%), ‘‘alpha roll’’ (31%), ‘‘stare at or stare [dog] down’’ (30%), ‘‘dominance down’’ (29%), and ‘‘grab dog by jowls and shake’’ (26%) elicited an aggressive response from at least a quarter of the dogs on which they were attempted. Dogs presenting for aggression to familiar people were more likely to respond aggressively to the confrontational techniques ‘‘alpha roll’’ and yelling ‘‘no’’ compared to dogs with other presenting complaints (P < 0.001)."


Contrary to some belief here, Danes are not easy dogs. They are on many (most, actually) aggressive and banned breed lists. They're #6 on Forbes' 2012 list of most often banned breeds, below Pitbull and Staffordshire Terriers, Doberman Pinschers, Rottweilers, German Shepherds and Chows and above Presa Canarios, Akitas, Malamutes, Huskies and Wolf hybrids (http://www.forbes.com/sites/cateyhi...eeds-for-homeowners-and-renters/#3a82694526ec). They are frequently rehomed and euthanized due to bite histories. They are not a breed that can be manhandled, or put on the ground. Both of my dogs are physically stronger than I am, one by a significant margin. Danes MUST be well trained - living with a 160+ lb untrained dog isn't an option, it's actually dangerous. As well as being pretty decently trained, my dogs also happen to sleep in my bed, sit on my lap when I watch football, rest their heads on the dinner table when I'm eating (because I don't ask them not to) and walk through doors before me. I don't care about any of those things because none of them mean that my dogs think they're the "boss".

At the end of the day, mutual respect and friendship is far more rewarding than respect earned through fear and punishment. Having been on both ends of the spectrum (and many places in between), I can tell you that I've never had two better trained dogs, or a better understanding of why they behave the way they do.

If you want to recommend a professional trainer to your girlfriend and her family, this is a really good resource to begin locating someone in your area: https://apdt.com/trainer-search/
 

Boxergirl

Well-Known Member
I really wasn't going to comment on this post again, but I can't seem to help it. Brady19, I am just not understanding where you see that anyone has said a dog shouldn't have rules, boundaries, and expectations. Or even consequences. Hiraeth's fist post, point #2, was rules and boundaries. Everything else suggested was to keep everyone safe until a professional could be contacted. I really didn't see anything posted that would suggest not providing leadership, rules, boundaries, and consequences (yes, positive reinforcement does include consequences). My consequences just don't include physical punishment.

I will always discourage any suggestion that alpha rolling, laying down, or any other physical punishment is an option. Particularly to someone posting about a dog that is showing aggression of any kind. Despite the fact that I strongly disagree with alpha rolling, I think it's beyond irresponsible to even insinuate that it might be an option to an anonymous person on an internet forum. Seriously bad things can happen. Confrontational and punitive training methods can result in escalated aggression and aggressive responses. Science is showing that punitive training methods can cause unintentional negative behavioral fallout. We should all be conscious that there are many people reading this forum that don't post. First do no harm. I try to live by that. Suggesting positive methods while someone looks for a trainer is, at worst, not going to work. It's not going to cause negative fallout and possible escalated negative behavior.

Brandon1234, the site Hiraeth suggested is the one I was going to suggest. Wishing you the best of luck.
 

Brady19

Well-Known Member
I said numerous times he shouldn't do that. I do not hit my dogs I simply let them know if they cross a line usually by saying their name. I'm just stating that basically were saying the same things because if you have rules you have positioned yourself in a position of power not of equal. I disagree with your ideas of social order that is basically what the debate is about, I see it often and understand dogs often use visual or physical ques to communicate. I just got a new pup last week she introduced herself at 8 weeks by going to both my dogs and rolling onto her back. She did this several times until they were comfortable with her. Now she didn't have this action to my cats. Most animals have a order in their families lions, cats, dogs, wolves, elephants even birds do also. That's all I'm saying and no amount of research can change that fact. Do you not see a chain of command in social animals? Anyways my animals are very spoiled, loved, respected and I hardly ever intervene in their daily lives unless I see signs of agression.

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Brady19

Well-Known Member
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marke

Well-Known Member
the part i find most frustrating in the "correction free training" argument is they need to equate correction to beating , kicking , hitting , and hurting your dog , never rewarding them , just punishing them for incorrect behavior ........................ corrections to my dogs are no more than the tone of my voice , my dogs are way smart , i couldn't count the words they know and what the different intonations mean .......... they pick that up from being corrected from day one , it doesn't take much to correct a pup .... just startle them , that's a correction to a pup ....... restrain them that's a correction , pick them up , that's a correction ......... swat them on the nose , that's a correction , make a loud noise that's a correction , grab them by the nape of the neck , that's a correction ....... i want my dogs to know what the tone of my voice means ............ hell they restrain mentally ill kids , and kids with autism when needed ........ no one here is gonna tell me restraining my dog is gonna ruin them , maybe you all got some really soft dogs , if they can't recover from a correction or being restrained like immediately after your done , you either way over did it , or you got a really "soft" dog .........I've known folks to cull those "soft" dogs as soon as they identified them , me i just treat them different , probably more like you all claim to treat yours ................ one time i broke up a fight by getting one dog in a leg lock and the other in a head lock , we layed there a good 4-5 minutes until they settled down enough to listen to me ..... I've choked them off in fights and pried them off , would that count as forcibly taking something out there mouth ????? my dogs have never been anything but bold outgoing inquisitive happy FRIENDLY dogs , no one has ever came to my house and met a timid dog , lots of folks have been afraid of them due to their boldness .... my dogs are allowed to be animals , and they love it , i kept my last 3 pups because in 25yrs of placing pups I've seen very few get better lives than the ones who stay here ............. i agree with boxergirls statement in that negative corrections can be really potent , damaging if not done correctly ....... as far as hireth saying she used corrections , had good timing , and injured the psyche of her dogs , well i can tell you she did something wrong , if she had good timing then the corrections were too hard for the dogs .... I've known some absolutely great trainers who have trained great dogs to the highest level of work and sport with rewards and corrections , and their dogs were in no way damaged ............ high jumping mikie , Banuelos predator , nikola , metcalfs gubby , d'cash ,sure grips tazmanian devil and on and on ........ and all the great trainers I've known of with these hard dogs that did a great job with them and just weren't into titles ......
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
i agree with boxergirls statement in that negative corrections can be really potent , damaging if not done correctly ....... as far as hireth saying she used corrections , had good timing , and injured the psyche of her dogs , well i can tell you she did something wrong , if she had good timing then the corrections were too hard for the dogs ....

But that's the whole problem, marke. When we're giving advice in an online setting, we can't tell if a correction is going to be too harsh for someone else's dog, or if that person has decent enough timing to use a correction effectively. Hint hint - most casual dog owners don't have that kind of timing. My corrections were too harsh for my dogs, and my dogs came from abusive homes, so to them, I was just another scary human who would sometimes hurt them.

In an online setting, where we can neither know the credentials of the person asking for help, nor can we know the level of "hardness" or "softness" of the dog, it is 100% irresponsible to recommend corrections, because the chances of fallout are there. Maybe they're not even high, but they're there all the same.

I don't correct my dogs at all. Not even verbally. That's how I choose to train and it works for me and it works for my dogs. I know people who train with corrections - they have sought professional help, they know how to time their corrections well, they use them when they need to, and that's fine. What these people also do is train a dog so they don't HAVE to correct it very often.

Needing frequent corrections is indicative of mismanagement or bad training. A correction is a reaction to a dog misbehaving, or disobeying a command. If corrections are frequent, that means the dog is frequently mismanaged or is untrained. BOTH of those errors are the fault of the human, not the dog.

My biggest problem with many people who train with corrections is a reliance upon corrections as a first resort. If a dog jumps, people knee it in the chest. If a dog counter surfs, people smack the dog or set up mouse traps on the counter. If the dog door dashes, people wait for it to come back and forcefully drag it back inside. If a dog chews up a shoe, people take the shoe and hit the dog so the dog knows it was 'bad'.

Corrections don't need to be used at all, or minimally, if a dog is managed well and taught behaviors that counter act the behaviors people don't want to see. For example, instead of correcting your dog for jumping on you, teach your dog to sit when you greet it so that it can't physically jump without breaking the sit. Instead of pushing your dog for counter surfing, teach your dog a 'place' command so that it's not in the kitchen when there's food around and keep your counters clean. Instead of correcting your dog for door dashing, teach it to sit, stay and wait for a release before it's allowed to run out the door. Instead of smacking a dog for chewing a shoe, put all of the shoes somewhere the dog can't reach them.

I am not against corrections IN training. I am against correction-BASED training. And I am very against recommending anything but R+ methods to internet strangers whose skill levels and dogs I don't know. Internet strangers with significant training issues should be given management recommendations and be told to contact a professional. Period.
 

PippatheMastiff

Well-Known Member
I'm really confused by all this. And the Cesar Millan note... I've read his book, watch his tv show, and I see him redirecting energy by touch. He never hurts a dog. Idk. I took puppy training several times, based on voice and hand commands followed by treating. Was taught if dog didn't respond correctly, ignore and try again. But never was taught how to handle negative behavior. I know you can't discipline them too long after the behavior. So Cesar teaches to be strong and stable so the dogs feels safe and confident. That most negative behavior comes from fear or from not knowing boundaries, which is all on their human. Touching to redirect the dog's attention works. He also uses touch as praise. I guess I'm more in the middle and Pippa is very well-behaved, she's confident , and she wants to please me , which makes correction so easy. The only thing I'm still working on is coming to me when she's off running after a scent. I blame myself for that -not giving her the opportunity to run as often as she needs. I need to fence in my yard.


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PippatheMastiff

Well-Known Member
Another issue I've had is at the door when someone comes. First she's protective, until she sees who it is, then overly excited. I've been using Cesar's calm, assertive training and it's working beautifully.


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marke

Well-Known Member
if everyone was as good with dogs as cesar is , they pretty much would have no issues with their dogs , and wouldn't fail with any of them ...... I've seen him do some pretty dramatic stuff , that I thought could have been done better and safer , might have been done for tv ........ i think most of his critics will point to the dog bites , and I agree no one should be getting bit by a dog you know bites , or at the very least surprised by it ..... I do believe you need to correct a dog that bites for biting , I don't believe it's behavior you can ignore or just not let it happen and assume it will go away ...............
 

marke

Well-Known Member
if everyone was as good with dogs as cesar is , they pretty much would have no issues with their dogs , and wouldn't fail with any of them ...... I've seen him do some pretty dramatic stuff , that I thought could have been done better and safer , might have been done for tv ........ i think most of his critics will point to the dog bites , and I agree no one should be getting bit by a dog you know bites , or at the very least surprised by it ..... I do believe you need to correct a dog that bites for biting , I don't believe it's behavior you can ignore or just not let it happen and assume it will go away ...............
I would like to clarify , when I say a dog that bites , I mean a dog that bites with bad intentions , not a playful biter
 

Hiraeth

Well-Known Member
Cesar Millan is a bit of a joke to most other dog trainers (in the R+, "balanced" and P+ communities, honestly). I hate talking about him, but here goes:

First of all, his show is edited for television. You don't see the entire scope of what he's doing or how long it takes. The show makes it seem like training can take place in 45 minutes and suddenly the dog is miraculously cured. That's not how real life works.

Second of all, marke is right, I have a HUGE problem with the way he has dealt with fearful dogs. He has strung up dogs, strangled them into submission, provoked multiple bites, and his whole 'ssshhht' thing while poking a dog's neck or shoulder is freaking ridiculous at best. He's been sued multiple times because the dogs he has rehabbed have suddenly (shocker) reverted to their previous bad behavior and have bitten their owners. Also, the whole thing with throwing an aggressive dog in with his "pack" - beyond stupid. I'd bet that only a small percentage of the fights that take place at his facility actually make the final edits.

I'm pretty okay with a *few* things he says. No touch, no talk, no eye contact. All good ideas when meeting a new dog, especially a dog who may have fear issues. Rules and boundaries - good ideas, too.

But his insistence that some dogs have dominant personalities, the way his show is packaged to make training look quick and easy, and the way he's perpetuated the ideas that alpha rolling dogs is an acceptable way to train, make me absolutely loathe him as a dog trainer.
 

Brady19

Well-Known Member
I suppose you have more professional experience than cesar who does this full time?

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Jolene

New Member
I disagree with what was said. A corso is going to test mine is around 10 months, the facts are it's my house my rules period. I have put my dog on the ground recently because he suddenly decided he would jump on me I have taught him from day one that was unacceptable. I have children 8 and 9 years old. He is also never ever to put him mouth on me or anyone in the family ever. If the dog is being aggressive over items you need to let him know it's yours and it's up to you when he has it. Make him sit and wait or put in on a table in front of you because it is yours. Him climbing on you is showing dominance. Do not allow it. Another thing that works is making the dog stay away from you and the family pack. Being outed also reinforces who is the leader. I completely disagree with the other view here. They are dogs they speak through their body and understand their is a leader and naturally test to be alpha. You have to take this spot, people try to make an animal understand and think as we do but they are animals. Corsos are large and powerful and do a lot of damage quickly. Mine is 100 lbs just last week we got a 1 lb yorki puppy. He tried to bully the pup but I have to let him know it's my place to assign who is where in the pack and all are equal but definitely below me.

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I'm not showing any anger there, I'm simply stating facts and trying to help this fella to prevent a disaster. I'm sorry if you take a disagreement as an attack. And not once was my tone uncivil lol. And your right we very clearly disagree on what a dog is as I said it's a beast first and a friend second. One day your understanding may change of you come across a dominant dog that needs a dominant leader. Even the AKC states this breed isn't for new owners with no experience and states they need a strong leader. But like I said I have nothing to prove to you just trying to give appropriate guidance to possibly save a dog and might even save a life

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Brady19, Sounds like your training techniques aren’t working as your dog tries to attack other dogs while your out for walks. Also the original post that started all this said...the man asking for help had pinned the CC down until he felt he had asserted his dominance over the dog. Now the dogs aggression towards him has worsened...so perhaps that technique was ineffective. You are likely a lost cause, but seems how so many people disagree with your seriously outdated dominance techniques why don’t you stop offering your terrible advice on here. I have a CC that I adopted when she was 9 months, she came with some issues. In my experience with her she respons far better to positive reinforcement. She weights more than I do, but yet she listens to me, I don’t let her get away with things, I am very strict, but I also reward her endlessly and she looks to me for direction. You can be firm without dominating.