Biting

[livegracefully]

My CC is a 9 month old female. She has been to a three week puppy board and train. She is crate trained, leash trained and follows commands from either my husband or myself. From the moment she met my husband as a weeks old puppy she has definitely been his velcro. She absolutely adores him. She whines, barks or tries to get between us (if she's not crated) if we kiss. If there's a situation where I am making her do something she doesn't like, she will try to bite me. She has bitten me three or four times, but the last time I almost needed stitches. In the same situations, she does not even growl at my husband. She has always been nippy with me.

The biting situations:
1. she had a foreign object in her mouth that I did not want her to swallow, so I instinctively tried to take it out of her mouth. Teeth, growl, and bite lurch. Same situation but with my husband taking it out of her mouth: head down but no growl or anything. It has happened since but now I know I cannot take it from her and I command "drop" until she puts it down on her own.
2. I was putting her into her crate with vocal command, but her rear end wasn't all the way in because she was sniffing or whatever. I tried to give a little push and she turned, growled, lurched and bit me. OK, so I can never try to nudge her bottom again.
3. She pulled a throw blanket off the couch. I came into the room, she was sitting beside the blanket on the floor but not touching, laying on it or chewing it. I picked it up, put it on the couch, and she growled, lurched at me, and bit my hand horribly. I actually thought at first that she bit my finger off of my hand.

At first I assumed it was my fault. I need to be more cognizant about how I handle her. But how am I going to know everything that is going to set her off? I never would have guessed she would be mad about me picking up a strictly human blanket, especially when she didn't seem to be touching it in any way.

It almost seems like she does this to me because she sees me as competition. Is that even a thing with this or any breed? I've raised a bullmastiff and a Great Dane; not exactly the same personalities but big, strong breeds that did obey me. My husband has a loud, sure voice and naturally the dogs have always responded to him more quickly than me. I'm the one who follows all the commands the trainer taught us to the letter, and he's the one who loves the CC and always wants her to "have freedom". He's lax on the training rules, but she will surely always listen if he issues a NO, etc. We called our trainer and she thinks I'm getting bitten because I am not forceful enough in training. BUT HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO BE BITTEN???

And what about when my family and toddler cousins come to stay? Who will get bitten next time? Will they go to the ER or will it just be me? I'm not even sure if I can go near her again. How can I know what will set her off?

Does anyone have any insight here?
Is there a way to fix this?
Does she need to be re-homed?

thanks in advance.

 

[Boxergirl]

So when you say you're the one that follows the trainer's directions to a "t", what does that mean? What techniques did they use and how do you "correct" or get your girl to comply? Please be very specific explaining.

 

[Richie]

I would also ask, how long has this been going on... A dog doesn't usually go from one extreme to the other without something causing it or the issue has been ongoing for sometime. Can you pinpoint a trigger to this change in behavior?

 

[livegracefully]

So when you say you're the one that follows the trainer's directions to a "t", what does that mean? What techniques did they use and how do you "correct" or get your girl to comply? Please be very specific explaining.

Well, I guess I mean I have her heel, sit, stay as we were taught. I don't let her pull on the leash or cross. When she needs corrected I say Tua, (her name) no, sternly and calmly, and at that point she will sit and I will praise her. Sorry, I don't know if that is specific enough. I never swat her nose or behind (my husband has done that a few times).

I would also ask, how long has this been going on... A dog doesn't usually go from one extreme to the other without something causing it or the issue has been ongoing for sometime. Can you pinpoint a trigger to this change in behavior?

How long has this been going on? At 10 weeks when we got her she was very chewy, I'm not sure she got bite inhibition from her mom. When I would tell her no for anything, she would show her teeth and say RUFF. At 4 months old she went to puppy training and now she doesn't react that way to NO. But she has always reacted poorly to me when I wanted her to do (or not do) what she wanted. I can't pinpoint a trigger.

 

[glen]

Id also like to know does she do this behaviour with you when your husband is around or is it just when your on your own,

 

[livegracefully]

Id also like to know does she do this behaviour with you when your husband is around or is it just when your on your own,

He has been in the house but in another room almost every time. When he is traveling, she seems to mind well and be fairly docile.

 

[Richie]

Well, I guess I mean I have her heel, sit, stay as we were taught. I don't let her pull on the leash or cross. When she needs corrected I say Tua, (her name) no, sternly and calmly, and at that point she will sit and I will praise her. Sorry, I don't know if that is specific enough. I never swat her nose or behind (my husband has done that a few times).



How long has this been going on? At 10 weeks when we got her she was very chewy, I'm not sure she got bite inhibition from her mom. When I would tell her no for anything, she would show her teeth and say RUFF. At 4 months old she went to puppy training and now she doesn't react that way to NO. But she has always reacted poorly to me when I wanted her to do (or not do) what she wanted. I can't pinpoint a trigger.

Being mouthy at 10 weeks is normal, however showing teeth and growling isn't. It's a sign she was afraid and she used that technique to bluff her way through. If at any point you backed-off or changed your tone with her she learned that worked so she continued to do it. I can imagine at nine months that's kind of scary.. From your response it sounds like she doesn't respect you as one of the pack leaders.

Do you also participate in the obedience training? If not, you need to start; it will help her understand she needs to take commands from you as well as she take them from your husband. May be at first participate with your husband (keeping the sessions short (10-15 minutes)) and eventually do it on your own, again keeping it short. You'll also need the support of your husband reinforcing that your commands are the same as if they came from him. If he is the only on feeding and training it's easy for her to pick him over you. Plus, if you use treats, she will learn that this person has cool treats for me if I obey. Use your marker words to help her understand what you want and when she is doing good. I'm a big fan of hand feeding to help build trust... hopefully she has some concept of (Easy, Calm, or Gentil) to reminder her to gentilly eat from you hand.

If you are already equally engaged in obedience training, how is that going? If she does what you ask, do you have to repeat yourself?

I think the dog is fine, the CC is a very stubborn breed, but with hard work and patience you can create a tight relationship between you and her. They will do almost anything for treats.

Also, very important to keep in mind; if she has been behaving this way since 10 weeks it may take awhile, but she'll come around.

 

[livegracefully]

Being mouthy at 10 weeks is normal, however showing teeth and growling isn't. It's a sign she was afraid and she used that technique to bluff her way through. If at any point you backed-off or changed your tone with her she learned that worked so she continued to do it. I can imagine at nine months that's kind of scary.. From your response it sounds like she doesn't respect you as one of the pack leaders.

Do you also participate in the obedience training? If not, you need to start; it will help her understand she needs to take commands from you as well as she take them from your husband. May be at first participate with your husband (keeping the sessions short (10-15 minutes)) and eventually do it on your own, again keeping it short. You'll also need the support of your husband reinforcing that your commands are the same as if they came from him. If he is the only on feeding and training it's easy for her to pick him over you. Plus, if you use treats, she will learn that this person has cool treats for me if I obey. Use your marker words to help her understand what you want and when she is doing good. I'm a big fan of hand feeding to help build trust... hopefully she has some concept of (Easy, Calm, or Gentil) to reminder her to gentilly eat from you hand.

If you are already equally engaged in obedience training, how is that going? If she does what you ask, do you have to repeat yourself?

I think the dog is fine, the CC is a very stubborn breed, but with hard work and patience you can create a tight relationship between you and her. They will do almost anything for treats.

Also, very important to keep in mind; if she has been behaving this way since 10 weeks it may take awhile, but she'll come around.

Thanks for the reply, it does make me feel better. I'm sure she did learn early on I will back off if she tries to bite me! That makes sense. I will incorporate more treats with my obedience, you're right, she's very food motivated. My husband doesn't practice training with her like I do--he just doesn't have to, she will listen to him no matter what! Lucky guy. I'll work harder and think of ways I can train and have him back me up.

Question: what is the correct response from me when she does growl, bare teeth, and/or bite me?

 

[Boxergirl]

I'm going to strongly suggest that you and your husband schedule a consult with a board certified behaviorist. They're expensive, but worth every penny. I can try to help you locate one if you'd like. I'm also going to suggest that most aggressive behaviors are fear related. Even things that don't look like it, like guarding a resource. With a dog like this I would suggest not using any physical punishments or corrections. No physical touches to redirect behaviors. Work on rock solid behaviors like a leave it/drop it. Work on a place cue. Can she be crated? I would crate her when company comes over if you think there's any concern at all. This is something that needs to be taken very seriously.

The reason I asked about the training methods you're using is because most board and train facilities use aversives. Pretty strong ones to achieve the results they get in such a short time. Do you know the methods they used and can you share? That's not a good fit for some dogs and can escalate any fear and aggressive tendencies. I don't think you should push this dog. Backing off is perfectly fine. I'm not saying you let her get away with whatever she's doing, but work on an alternative behavior like sending her to her place rather than pushing and having her react. I know there are those on the forum that disagree with me, but the old dominance/alpha theories have been disproven by science. That kind of training with a dog like this is likely to get you hurt. Please don't go there.

For now, work on all of your interactions being very positive. Keep treats on you and around the house. Reward her whenever she does anything you want. Redirect or ask for an alternate behavior if she's doing something you don't want. Do NOT punish the growl. That's the only way she has to communicate that she's uncomfortable. If you take that away from her then she'll go directly for a bite and that's not something you want to happen.

 

[Richie]

Thanks for the reply, it does make me feel better. I'm sure she did learn early on I will back off if she tries to bite me! That makes sense. I will incorporate more treats with my obedience, you're right, she's very food motivated. My husband doesn't practice training with her like I do--he just doesn't have to, she will listen to him no matter what! Lucky guy. I'll work harder and think of ways I can train and have him back me up.

Question: what is the correct response from me when she does growl, bare teeth, and/or bite me?

With a dog that size, you probably need a professional,which I'm not, but if it was me, I would calmly, tell her "no" and wait for her to stop growling. when she does; I would say "Good".... followed by "YES" and immediately (less than a second) give her a treat. The point is to teach her, when she is calm she get treats, growling gets no treats. Over a period of time, the growling session will get shorter as she learns - the sooner i stop growling the sooner I'll get a treat

Also, "No" as a marker word, should be used to help the dog understand -I see you trying but that's not it. For example: you say "Down" (assuming you use DOWN for Lay Down) and she "Sit". You should calmly say "No. Down." when she get it right, "YES" followed by a treat. So use it calmly. No is often used for correction for bad behavior. Used properly she will learn the difference. But, you don't just want "No" to be associated for correction for bad behavior.

 

[Boxergirl]

With a dog that size, you probably need a professional,which I'm not, but if it was me, I would calmly, tell her "no" and wait for her to stop growling. when she does; I would say "Good".... followed by "YES" and immediately (less than a second) give her a treat. The point is to teach her, when she is calm she get treats, growling gets no treats. Over a period of time, the growling session will get shorter as she learns - the sooner i stop growling the sooner I'll get a treat

Also, "No" as a marker word, should be used to help the dog understand -I see you trying but that's not it. For example: you say "Down" (assuming you use DOWN for Lay Down) and she "Sit". You should calmly say "No. Down." when she get it right, "YES" followed by a treat. So use it calmly. No is often used for correction for bad behavior. Used properly she will learn the difference. But, you don't just want "No" to be associated for correction for bad behavior.

So here's my problem with how we humans tend to use "no." It's very broad. It doesn't give the dog any information about what we want them TO DO. Plus everyone and their brother uses the word. I find it works much better to teach an alternate behavior and ask the dog to do that rather than just going with a "no." And if you have an alternate behavior in place, you don't need the word no. It could also be that this dog has associated the word with a negative consequence from past use.

 

[Boxergirl]

I don't have access to the full article from Meghan Herron, but here's an overview of the subject from Patricia McConnell.

Confrontational techniques elicit aggression:
https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/confrontational-techniques-elicit-aggression

 

[Boxergirl]

There's another really important question that hasn't been asked. Where did you get your girl? Did she come from a responsible breeder? At what age? I'm not judging whatever the answer is.

 

[livegracefully]

There's another really important question that hasn't been asked. Where did you get your girl? Did she come from a responsible breeder? At what age? I'm not judging whatever the answer is.

This is all very helpful. At her board and train, they used positive reinforcement with treat rewards, a clicker, and an e-collar. We got her at 10 weeks from a breeder we thought was responsible, but now we suspect he was not. She does have ICCF registry, but I'm not sure that is any reflection on her breeder, and it wasn't something we were looking for.

I would be interested in finding an animal behaviorist in central-east Florida. We have another follow-up class scheduled with her board and train trainer in the coming weeks (we've had a couple since she came home and they do say lifetime training services are included).

 

[Boxergirl]

This is all very helpful. At her board and train, they used positive reinforcement with treat rewards, a clicker, and an e-collar. We got her at 10 weeks from a breeder we thought was responsible, but now we suspect he was not. She does have ICCF registry, but I'm not sure that is any reflection on her breeder, and it wasn't something we were looking for.

I would be interested in finding an animal behaviorist in central-east Florida. We have another follow-up class scheduled with her board and train trainer in the coming weeks (we've had a couple since she came home and they do say lifetime training services are included).

Honestly, registration isn't an indicator of breeder responsibility. Behavior issues can be genetic. I also think an ecollar is a terrible choice for a dog like yours. I think that certain methods will make her issues worse and I would be hesitant to follow up with any trainer that was using aversives. My daughter is a certified clicker trainer through the KPA academy, fear free certified, and is pursuing her behavior specialty. She also has a lot of experience with issues like you're dealing with. If you'd be interested, she offers a free consultation. It can be done through zoom. I'm not sharing this because she's my daughter. I'm sharing this because I know she's good and I think that a free consult will give you some valuable insight going forward. I'll share her website and facebook page. I'll also see if I can find any certified behaviorists in your area. I wish you could see the one we see. I've asked my daughter if Dr. Colleen does zoom consults and I'll let you know what she says. I trust Dr. Colleen implicitly.

You can see my daughter's pages and contact her at the links below. Like I said, the consult is free. There's nothing to lose. I want you to get help asap.

http://www.pawsitive-bonds.com/?fbclid=IwAR1EAdkQ98NyA89wvo41y_70oJadfqPqOpFOEYXQ8-edikRo0EBumRsviDA

https://www.facebook.com/pawsitivebondsdogtraining/

 

[glen]

Totally agree with boxergirl, i dont use the word no.
Leave it, here, freeze, drop,
Id never push a dog to get them anywhere, i dont think trying to physically force a dog to move is the best way, if id tried that with budcuss i know id have problems.
I crate trained with high value treat, if i want them in the crates quick i get the treat they instantly know now, each one runs to there crate and waits for me to lock the door then treat. Her crate needs to be a good place not just a bad behaviour place,

 

[Boxergirl]

Here's a link to help you search for a behaviorist in your area. (Ours is Dr. Colleen Koch, if you're interested in taking a peek at her credentials. I haven't heard back from my daughter if Doctor does zoom consults over distance.) A behaviorist is expensive. You need to know that going in. But ours is worth every single penny and I wish I'd have had her for my fearful boxer. She's been a lifesaver for my daughter's Otis.

https://www.dacvb.org/search/custom.asp?id=5985

 

[livegracefully]

Here's a link to help you search for a behaviorist in your area. (Ours is Dr. Colleen Koch, if you're interested in taking a peek at her credentials. I haven't heard back from my daughter if Doctor does zoom consults over distance.) A behaviorist is expensive. You need to know that going in. But ours is worth every single penny and I wish I'd have had her for my fearful boxer. She's been a lifesaver for my daughter's Otis.

https://www.dacvb.org/search/custom.asp?id=5985

Thank you much!