When Did Balance Become a Dirty Word by Karma Performance

[Winterspring]

I didn't like Cesar Milan's approach to dog training, because even though I watched his show and he seemed to have great success, it never seemed like the people would get to have any FUN with their dogs. (Wrestling, mooshing, flopping around like doofuses together...whatever floats your boat...)

So I thought Victoria Stilwell's Positive Only method would work when we got Taurus. Well, in the Fila forums, I posted a thread called "Furious" because the @#$%^&* that came to our home for the bargain price of a hundred and fifty clams sat there for an hour and a half telling us that, in paraphrased terms, that our dog was a fearful, aggressive, dangerous mess of a dog, and that this stupid clicker would fix all our problems, because she read three paragraphs on the breed after I'd called her, and decided that my dog was a menace to society. Sure, he's been sitting and lying down better, but he also has started trying to anticipate my commands when there's food involved. ("Food driven" is not an extreme enough descriptor. If anyone has any suggestions on how to stop this monster from shoving his fat head under our arms at the dinner table, to say nothing of the fact that we have to put him in another room if we want to watch something while we eat in the living room, feel free to send suggestions our way. He's horrible.)

We've been trying to do PO. It just doesn't work with him! And evidently, according to that article, will never work, and now it makes sense!

AB, ruth, dogman and several others have suggested a prong collar, and I used to be staunchly against it. But after what they told me, I've considered it. Yeah, I saw the horror photos on Google Image, but from what I saw regarding the links that were posted for my benefit (THANK YOU, whoever that was...I'm sorry I can't remember which of you did that for me) and compared them to the horror pics, I realized that the prong collars were NOT fitted correctly, and had sharp edges, which they are NOT supposed to have, and were used in TOTALLY the wrong way!

So much more makes sense now. Thank you!

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Winterspring, most of us have tried PO methods and are open to trying new things. I've learned some great tips and tricks from PO but I know from experience it doesn't always work and some dogs need a "firm" reminder. Mason who was my star pupil and becoming an ass, I'm trying PO with him given his personality. But all I'm getting is a big FU, LOL. I don't like prongs on "pups" ( he's 5 months) but he's pushing it.

 

[Winterspring]

Right?

I guess there is no "one true way", because they're like people and we should do a little of this, and a little of that, because one method will work well with one aspect of their behavior (e.g. food-related behavior like Keep your fat face off the counter and out of the cat bowls! Augh! Sorry. So yeah...food related...) but not with another (e.g. how they interact with the family No! FFS stop making that noise! Use ANY noise but that one to get my attention! I beg of you!... ...Ahem...).

So yeah. The clicker and treats work okay, until Taurus decides that he knows what I'm going to ask next, and then he's sitting before I can say "sit", or giving me his left hand (whacking me in the knee) or lying down. And you can't sit there, having a heart-to-heart, explaining, "No, see, you don't get it. You're not supposed to anticipate. You're supposed to wait until I say, 'do this'." "Okay, but, if I just run through all the stuff you tell me to do before I get the snack, I'll hit on one of 'em, right?" "No, see. You have to wait." "But I don't like to wait, and this 'stay' crap you keep trying to pull with me? Not cool, chick. NOT cool. You go out of my line of sight. I don't care what you and Daddy are trying to do in the room with the Big Bed. And even when you're just going around the corner, if I wait for you to call me...well...what if you don't call me? What if there are monsters? Or the cats? What if there are aliens? I can't trust that you'll come back or call for me if I can't see you, because I'm supposed to protect you, right?" "Well, I suppose, but I still don't want you under my legs when I'm trying to do the laundry." "But you...wait. What? LAUNDRY??? GIMME THE SOOOOOCCCCKKKKKSSS!" "*facepalm*"

It's probably a good thing dogs don't talk. Anyway.

I want ALL THE METHODS!! It would delight me to no end if I could enter him in an obedience trial. I wouldn't, but it would just be great to have him that well-trained. And I'll tell you? Since reading all this? I've started correcting him. And it's driving the point home quicker than I even thought possible. The change was immediate. He was trying to bother his favorite cat, and I told him, "NO!" (And that felt SO good.) I said "no" again, then took hold of his face and turned it to look at me, and said it again. Throughout the day, I kept up with the "no's" and petting him when he followed commands, and he's starting to realize that making that noise is not going to get me or the cat to play with him. It feels like now I have permission to treat my dog like a person instead of a Ming vase. Giving him a nudge in the back of the head to get his attention with my finger isn't abuse. I do it to my friends! "Hey. You. I'm talking to you. *poke*" Poke. Not jab.

So. Tell me more about this NILF thing and how it's worked for you guys. I'm looking it up, but as I have found out, hearing from people who actually do stuff is way different than reading bland articles on the internet. I am also going to ask the guy who owns the shop where I buy Taurus's food for a few references for trainers. His shop is geared towards the Big Boys and he understands that these are big, strong, stubborn, extremely intelligent dogs (Pit Bulls, Mastiffs of all kinds, etc.). I would love to gush about this shop, but I'm not even sure what forum I should put that in! lol

 

[kbuchanan66]

So. Tell me more about this NILF thing and how it's worked for you guys.

In my eyes it is just plain common sense to use it with dogs and really I even do it with my cats lol. NILIF (Nothing in Life Is Free) is as simple as making sure the dog sits before you pet him/her. Making them sit and be calm before getting food, toys, treats. Making them be calm before any interaction. Using Puzzle games so that they have to WORK for their food not just gobble it down. They get absolutely nothing unless they follow a command that YOU give. I have also seen people take it to an extreme by having their dogs dinner divided up and they have to accomplish 1 command per serving.

My NILIF looks like this most days: Morning as soon as I crack my eyes open I call my dogs into the room. I make them sit at the foot of the bed before allowing them to come up on the bed "They know they have to be asked (in the morning at least because they do sneak up during the night sometimes)". Once they are up on the bed I tell them to laydown and only once they lay down do they get pet. For feeding breakfast and supper I make them sit and wait for me to fill the bowls. They are not aloud to move until I release them from their sit and tell them to eat. Anytime they come to us for attention to exuberantly they are told to sit/laydown and hold that position for a few seconds before we pet and cuddle them. With treats they got to perform some sort of trick to get one. On walks they have to do a sit at the door for a couple seconds before I open the door and than once again before I let them off leash to run around.

 

[kbuchanan66]

I forgot to add that even when playing fetch or throwing a ball my dogs need to sit beside me and wait until I say "Fetch". Than if they want it thrown again they have to relinquish that ball to me. To me this is self control in a dog. Have you ever been at a park and seen a dog bounce right in front of their owner waiting for that ball to be thrown? Or sqeak, whine and squeal until the ball is thrown? Or run circles until the ball is thrown? To me that is EXCESSIVE and that dog shows no self control.

 

[ruthcatrin]

NILF is basically what Kbuchanan said. There are folks who take it to HUGE extremes, where the dog can't barely take a step without performing, and although there are situations where thats nessecary, most dogs don't require THAT strict a training. But for most folks its basically requiring polite behavior in order for the dog to get what they want. He wants his meal, therefor he has to sit politely and wait to be released to eat, or work his way through puzzle treats or kongs. He wants to go out and play he has to sit politely at the door waiting for the leash. If I've got a command I've been working on I'll add it in and before putting the leash on I'll ask for a "down" or other command, and THEN reward the dog with the play time. He wants attention he has to be polite, not jumping. That sort of thing.

 

[Winterspring]

Well, s%^. I've already been doing that!

I don't allow him to eat until I tell him, "Release." And he's VERY good about that. He's good about not sticking his face in the bag while i'm dishing out his food, though he HAS to see what I'm doing. I never give him a treat without having him do something for it.

I would really like to hone the not eating until I say so, for safety's sake, which is why I began teaching him that in the first place. (I have to do it pretty quick, though, or Mayhem will sneak up and start digging in.) For instance, if I drop a grape from the counter, it would be nice to have him just sit there, because they're dangerous for dogs. But, it's not going to happen overnight. Work, work, work. With his toys, I'm already going, "Go get your Wubba! Go get it!! GOOD BOY!!!" But that's me. We're working on riling him up to like, Light Speed and then just suddenly giving the "DOWN!" command. He's getting it FAST.

Oh, I'm so pleased! Thank you! I can't believe people knock this method! If not for well-behaved dogs, safety's sake. A nice, quick "DOWN" when suddenly there's a threat (sometimes even Filas don't consider something a threat...particularly if it doesn't seem to be a threat to the owner) like a bicycle out of nowhere, or expecting him to hold still while I'm grooming him. (Anyone ever teach their pup to "Stand"? Seems to be a tough one.)

I'm SO glad this thread was started. I'm a first time Mommy and I'm SOOOO neurotic. (Like you couldn't guess.)

 

[ruthcatrin]

Not going for dropped stuff is a "leave it" command, and it can be a difficult one, especially for food items. Basically lots of patience and consistancy.

I don't understand having problems with NILF either. Yes, taken to an extreme it can be a bad thing, but thats true of ANY training method.

Stand....show dogs are taught to "stand" for both grooming and show purposes. It can be a weird one to teach if you've never done it. Put him on a leash, walk him forward a few steps, tell him to "stand" as you stop. He'll probly try to sit, put your hand under him and push him upwards. Reward, and repeat.

 

[Winterspring]

Thank you!

Grooming is exactly why I want to use "stand". I groom him pretty often, and I could get it done a lot faster if he weren't plopping onto his side, effectively blocking the one I want to brush. lol

And now that you mention it, "leave it" would be better. I'll do some research on my own on the best way to drill this home before bothering you with it, though. I'm shocked at the number of useful YouTube vids about dog training.

You're all so much help to me and to Taurus. Thank you for not making me feel like a monster for insisting my dog behave like a dog and not a rampaging toddler geeked up on too much sugar.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Welcome!

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

In my eyes it is just plain common sense to use it with dogs and really I even do it with my cats lol. NILIF (Nothing in Life Is Free) is as simple as making sure the dog sits before you pet him/her. Making them sit and be calm before getting food, toys, treats. Making them be calm before any interaction. Using Puzzle games so that they have to WORK for their food not just gobble it down. They get absolutely nothing unless they follow a command that YOU give. I have also seen people take it to an extreme by having their dogs dinner divided up and they have to accomplish 1 command per serving.

My NILIF looks like this most days: Morning as soon as I crack my eyes open I call my dogs into the room. I make them sit at the foot of the bed before allowing them to come up on the bed "They know they have to be asked (in the morning at least because they do sneak up during the night sometimes)". Once they are up on the bed I tell them to laydown and only once they lay down do they get pet. For feeding breakfast and supper I make them sit and wait for me to fill the bowls. They are not aloud to move until I release them from their sit and tell them to eat. Anytime they come to us for attention to exuberantly they are told to sit/laydown and hold that position for a few seconds before we pet and cuddle them. With treats they got to perform some sort of trick to get one. On walks they have to do a sit at the door for a couple seconds before I open the door and than once again before I let them off leash to run around.

This couldn't have said it better myself.