Boxergirl
Well-Known Member
I believe they know the rules and relentlessly try to dominate the household as I truly think its their main goal.
This is sarcasm, right?
I believe they know the rules and relentlessly try to dominate the household as I truly think its their main goal.
Dealing with DDB dogs over there, I know you know what dominance means. I was there for 9 and 1/2 years also and it never really stopped, I just got used to it over the years. I have never seen or met another dog as dominant as a male DDB.
If you notice that the definition from Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't go any further into the issue than that one statement. As such, it's not incorrect. It's just that there's so much more to the issue than can be stated in one sentence. Such as the fact that the definition is talking about a social hierarchy between animals. Not between animals and humans. Which is where the distinction comes in. It does make a difference. I'm not sure why it's so difficult for people to understand.
"Dominance is defined as a relationship between individual animals that is established by force/aggression and submission, to determine who has priority access to multiple resources such as food, preferred resting spots, and mates (Bernstein 198 Drews 1993). Most undesirable behaviors in our pets are not related to priority access to resources; rather, they are due to accidental rewarding of the undesirable behavior."
https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Dominance_Position_Statement_download-10-3-14.pdf
As per the definition set forth by ethologists, you're still using the word incorrectly. Unless you're talking about your DDB dealing with other dogs. I suspect you mean that your ASSERTIVE and CONFIDENT dog tested you often. Still not dominance as per the definition set forth by ethologists. Scientists that exclusively study animal behavior. Maybe your dog didn't feel that you were a strong enough leader and he could get away with things. Maybe by using coercion and heavy handed corrections you created passive resistance and the dog felt the need to continually test you. Maybe you just had a really persistent dog. I have no idea. I know that there are dogs that continue to test the boundaries and see what they can get away with. It's what dogs do, particularly if they feel that they can get what they want because there isn't consistency it the household rules. All I'm saying - again - is that you are using the word incorrectly in the context of human-dog interaction.
Listen, the biggest problem I have with the word is that far too many people watch television personalities and decided that their dog is "dominant" and they should do things like alpha rolls, putting a prong an an 8 or 12 week old puppy and giving it harsh corrections, making the dog watch them eat first so the human is alpha, etc. For cripes sake, some people spit in their dog's food to show they're alpha. It just boggles my mind that so many people think their animal is the exception to the laws of learning. The animals at Shedd Aquarium are taught using a clicker and positive reinforcement. My daughter has several friends that majored in biology of various sorts that now work at large zoos across the country. They deal with huge, dangerous animals daily. Guess what method they use to train? Clicker/marker and positive reinforcement. If those animals, who are much too large to coerce or punish (or too dangerous to punish) can be taught this way, why would anyone choose to use outdated training techniques? Of course that's an individual choice, but the most reliable behaviors are achieved through positive methods rather than punitive. I guess my belief is contained wholly in my signature quote.
"Dominance is defined as a relationship between individual animals that is established by force/aggression and submission, to determine who has priority access to multiple resources such as food, preferred resting spots, and mates (Bernstein 198 Drews 1993). Most undesirable behaviors in our pets are not related to priority access to resources; rather, they are due to accidental rewarding of the undesirable behavior."
https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Dominance_Position_Statement_download-10-3-14.pdf
As per the definition set forth by ethologists, you're still using the word incorrectly. Unless you're talking about your DDB dealing with other dogs. I suspect you mean that your ASSERTIVE and CONFIDENT dog tested you often. Still not dominance as per the definition set forth by ethologists. Scientists that exclusively study animal behavior. Maybe your dog didn't feel that you were a strong enough leader and he could get away with things. Maybe by using coercion and heavy handed corrections you created passive resistance and the dog felt the need to continually test you. Maybe you just had a really persistent dog. I have no idea. I know that there are dogs that continue to test the boundaries and see what they can get away with. It's what dogs do, particularly if they feel that they can get what they want because there isn't consistency it the household rules. All I'm saying - again - is that you are using the word incorrectly in the context of human-dog interaction.
Listen, the biggest problem I have with the word is that far too many people watch television personalities and decided that their dog is "dominant" and they should do things like alpha rolls, putting a prong an an 8 or 12 week old puppy and giving it harsh corrections, making the dog watch them eat first so the human is alpha, etc. For cripes sake, some people spit in their dog's food to show they're alpha. It just boggles my mind that so many people think their animal is the exception to the laws of learning. The animals at Shedd Aquarium are taught using a clicker and positive reinforcement. My daughter has several friends that majored in biology of various sorts that now work at large zoos across the country. They deal with huge, dangerous animals daily. Guess what method they use to train? Clicker/marker and positive reinforcement. If those animals, who are much too large to coerce or punish (or too dangerous to punish) can be taught this way, why would anyone choose to use outdated training techniques? Of course that's an individual choice, but the most reliable behaviors are achieved through positive methods rather than punitive. I guess my belief is contained wholly in my signature quote.
@Steven C, can you please answer my question about this statement?
"I believe they know the rules and relentlessly try to dominate the household as I truly think its their main goal."
.
I know what I've learned from the seminars I've attended. Not one speaker has said that dogs are trying to dominate their humans. These weren't just Joe Blows giving their own opinions. They were experts in their field. We aren't discussing behavior within the species here, we're discussing whether your dog walking through the door first or putting his paw on your arm is him trying to dominate you. Clearly we aren't going to convince each other of anything. I wasn't looking to get into an argument here. Just trying to clarify what almost every forward thinking behaviorist and trainer is saying about a word that has been abused and over-used - in the context of dog training. Not in the context of species interaction. I'm not sure how many more times I can say that. I'm not looking to discuss whether your dog behaves in a dominant manner with his canine housemate or if there is a social hierarchy in the animal world. That's not what this is about. And I'm done banging my head against the wall now. I hope that someone found the articles enlightening from a training standpoint.
@Steven C, can you please answer my question about this statement?
"I believe they know the rules and relentlessly try to dominate the household as I truly think its their main goal."
I didn't make a mistake about the word resilience. I asked you to explain how you were using it because I had never heard the argument that cropping ears made a dog more resilient. To me, your usage was unclear and awkward. When you explained, I believe I said that we seemed to be talking about the same thing. I have also NEVER insinuated that you are an abusive trainer. Lastly, there certainly are prongs that will fit an 8 or 12 week old pup. People buy and use them all the time. They just take links out. And unfortunately they're the smaller prongs with deliver a much harsher correction.
But see, Marke, what you just said is why I say so often that we really don't see things much differently. Your anecdotes about the observed behavior within your dog group is one thing. The pack dynamics are a separate issue and not what I was intending with this thread. It's a different relationship than the one YOU have with your dogs. You don't appear to believe that your dogs are plotting to achieve dominance over you. I have never seen you say that your dogs try to dominate you. You don't live in an adversarial relationship with your dogs because you don't need to. You control all aspects of their lives, including resources. You clearly have rules and boundaries and they respect that. I truly believe that we train pretty much the same way. You provide fair and clear leadership and they don't have to be unsure of what you expect of them. I think that someone that lives thinking their dogs are plotting to gain control are missing out on a lot and making it much harder than it has to be.