Sales Contract Questions

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Okay so on another forum there was a discussion about buying from breeders that use contracts vs ones that don't and the general consesus at this point on there was that most would not buy from someone with a contract because most times they aren't flexible on points that are important to the puppy buyer.

I am curious as I have been both, the puppy buyer that has had to sign the contracts as well as the breeder that has them and I am curious about what things people have encountered in contracts that have turned them off or made them opt out of that puppy and what they want or prefer to see in a contract.

Think it will help me understand puppy buyers in the future so I understand points of view that might not have occurred to me.

 

[Smart_Family]

We have had four puppies that came from breeders,one of which was a rescue/foster mission. I signed contracts with two of the four. I don't really have a preference on it. The biggest part of the contracts were the neuter parts, which both breeders already knew my stances on so it wasn't an issue. I mean I like having a contract so that there's proof so to speak but it wouldn't stop me from buying a puppy I really wanted.

 

[dpenning]

I've only every been a buyer not a breeder but I never think twice about signing the contract. I've had two dogs with heart conditions, 1 newf and 1 pom, and notified both breeders because I felt it important they know but never went back to the contract to see if there was any "recourse". I've only ever looked at the contract as a promise to neuter or spay which is not a big deal to me as I would always do that with any animal I own anyway.

 

[aphayes96]

We signed a contract with our new Pup Grady... neutering, hips and such are included but I, for one, only look for that stuff in there to reassure that the buyers are getting a healthy pup. I can't imagine using the contract in that manner. For instance: A dog gets hip, knee, etc issues at the age of 2 or so... are you seriously going to give up your pup and get a new one from the breeder? Or insist that you get a new pup (if you get to keep your dog?) Weird. After our Boxer needed a knee replacement... we didn't blink. It's not an option to give our dogs away. I wonder if anyone does this anyway? Grady snagged our hearts the first day he was with us... I'm in it, sickness and health. HA! So... sorry I've made my point long winded... I wouldn't NEED a contract since but I think it makes me feel like they are more responsible breeders, etc.

 

[northernmastiff]

I have signed contracts and not signed them and there usually isn't much that I am afraid of in a contract. One contract was for a show quality bitch so I had to sign a contract stating I would show her. She was on a pet registration until she was titled, again, not a problem. Pet contracts are fine and a good way to protect a line. Most contracts protect both the buyer and the breeder so I don't have a big problem with them. That being said, I didn't bother going with several breeders because of contract clauses. The ones that were stipulated were:

1. You had to take your puppy to THEIR vet within 3 days of purchasing the puppy to receive the health guarantee. Vet thing wasn't a problem...it was just that it had to be their vet that was since they lived over 12 hours away.
2. Health guarantee would only be honored if the diagnosis for the condition was given by their vet...again same breeder 12 hours away.
3. Have to feed RAW diet. Don't have a problem with feeding raw but I only feed raw as treats and I don't think what I feed my dog should be mandatory. Some people can't feed raw so have some movement in that clause.
4. Breeding was allowed but...a) they had to choose the stud for every single litter b) they received two of the first pick from the first litter or the dollar amount for two puppies c) they received 5000 plus the dog returned if you chose your own stud. The pup thing isn't an issue as I have seen that lots but if you are starting your own line and are going for a certain trait in your line, why would you want the breeder to choose your stud for every litter. Obviously, help is appreciated and most people would use the recommendation of the breeder. Also, the $5000 seems a bit much since all the contracts were breeding contracts...this breeder did not sell on non-breeding contracts at all...which is another red herring for me. Only a small number of dogs should be bred and with some litters, non of the puppies should be bred.

There were a few other things but I can't remember them off hand. Usually contracts don't bother me but you get the occassional one that throws you. I know I read one contract that said the dog had to live in the house (non issue for me as mi casa es su casa) although the breed was known to thrive in a kennel environment (hunting dogs) and another was that you would owe the breeder $5000 if the dog died in the first two years from anything beside a health problem linked to genetics. Not sure why you would owe the breeder for that.

Sorry for the long reply. LOL.

---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 PM ----------

Oh, one that I always agreed with was showing proof that the puppy was trained. It was for a large, aggressive breed that really needs proper training.

 

[northernmastiff]

Oh, one that I always agreed with was showing proof that the puppy was trained. It was for a large, aggressive breed that really needs proper training.

 

[Kandie]

I haven't yet bought a dog that I needed a contract for but for my CC search I have seen my share of contracts. There was a few things that bothered me but nothing too big. Also had things that I really liked.

Dislike:
The breeders who takes deposits by 1st, 2nd and 3rd pick female and 1st, 2nd and 3rd pick for male. Which makes the price higher as well. I don't think that is fair at all. It should be based on whose deposit was first and for which quality (pet or show) they want. (In my opinion)

The requirement for feeding high quality food was totally fine with me because I plan on feeding raw. The documentation is what bothered me. I totally understand you won't know what Im feeding without proof but I highly doubt I will keep track of every receipt I ever had for food purchases. And what if I get the meat from the grocery store with the rest of my household groceries, how can you be sure this was for the dog and not for human consumption?

This isn't so much the contract but another thing that is kind of a hassle is a breeder who will only take money orders or cashiers checks. It would be easier and faster if they accepted paypal (and make the buyer pay the 3% that paypal takes). I once saw a contract that stated the breeder only took cashier's checks and money orders and that they HAD to be Fedex/UPS sent. So I went to each website, just to price how much it would cost to ship and it was around $30 for both places. Seriously?!?! That was ridiculous.

Like:

I agree 100% with northernmastiff. I LOVE the clause where the puppy MUST be entered into Puppy Kindergarten and its HIGHLY recommended that basic training follow. Both of which I plan to do.

One contract I read wanted updated pictures every year (to add to their website) which was cute because who doesn't like showing off their dogs???

I only ever saw pet quality contracts, so I have no clue how the show ones look.

 

[Danté Vivi & Bella's Mom]

Hey Mary I don't have any input - I just want to thank you for caring enough to want the prospective owner's perspective and for not adopting the attitude that "I've been doing this for ___ (insert amount of time), know it all and can't possibly improve!"

I happened across an ad the other day talking about an upcoming litter (due next month) with the statement "All pups in this litter will be sold for $2,500 with registration and full breeding rights." It made me sick to my stomach. How can someone possibly predict that all puppies will be show or breed quality? They can't no matter who the sire and dam are. The idiot also referred to the mom and dad as 'true vets' and that the pups will be this as well. What the heck does that mean?!? The ad really pissed me off. I really hate what some folks are out there doing to our breed, the Cane Corso. It makes me sad.

Sorry for being off topic at the end there...

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Thanks everyone for the imput you guys are giving me some stuff to look over in my own contracts and see what I can improve on.

Hey Mary I don't have any input - I just want to thank you for caring enough to want the prospective owner's perspective and for not adopting the attitude that "I've been doing this for ___ (insert amount of time), know it all and can't possibly improve!"

I happened across an ad the other day talking about an upcoming litter (due next month) with the statement "All pups in this litter will be sold for $2,500 with registration and full breeding rights." It made me sick to my stomach. How can someone possibly predict that all puppies will be show or breed quality? They can't no matter who the sire and dam are. The idiot also referred to the mom and dad as 'true vets' and that the pups will be this as well. What the heck does that mean?!? The ad really pissed me off. I really hate what some folks are out there doing to our breed, the Cane Corso. It makes me sad.

Sorry for being off topic at the end there...

No worries, I see way too many things that bother me in this breed as well but I want to keep learning so I will always try to take it from both angles I have been on both sides and I want both sides to feel comfortable and that the contracts are fair and most of all that the puppy is looked after.

 

[Danté Vivi & Bella's Mom]

Thanks for understanding - I'm pretty sure that you well aware of the madness. It bothers me so badly that if I am out somewhere and my idiot radar detects an idiot, I won't even tell them what type of breed my sweeties are when they ask. I'll say 'eh, he or she is just a mix.' Sometimes I'll get a look that tells me that they don't quite believe me, but I am so totally fine with that.

 

[Appa'sMom]

In our search for our EM I ran into a few clauses on contracts that made me say "No thanks." 1.) having to order food from their supplier for the life of the dog. 2.) The dog could not be kept in a kennel/crate 3.) The dog had to be taken to the vet within three days and had to be cleared "of all/any genetic abnormalities" or the health guarantee was null and void...my vet didn't even know what they wanted him to do! Lol

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

Contracts where you have to send the sick dog back to the breeder for a replacement. If you sell me a dog that has a genetic defect that I find out about a year later, my family is in love with the dog already. There is no way I would return my dog, which nullifies any contract where I have to return it for a replacement.
Just my $0.02

 

[reina]

Hey Hemigirl!

Things I don't like:

- Gotta give the pup back to the breeder to get a replacement if s/he gets a debilitating health issue
- When different colors are more expensive than the others.. errgh
- Minimum age to breed sixteen months old
- You must get OFA screenings at 24 months old - I prefer PennHIP because they do it a mathematical way rather than the objective way
- If buyer succeeds in breeding SQ dog, buyer must pay breeder price of first pick pup to "buy into" the bloodlines (what??)

Things I really do quite like:

- Right of first refusal. Seems to me like the breeder actually cares if that puppy ends up being homeless
- Puppy kindergarten and basic obedience is a requirement
- Feeding of high quality food such as Eagle Pack or something equal
- Show quality dogs may not breed to another [same breed] of inferior quality
- When, in the contract, they explain why something is there and doesn't just say it
- Breeder retains the right to send a representative to the dog's new home to "check up" on it

On the fence about:

- Temperament guarantee. I understand temperament guarantee within like 48 hours of the puppy coming home, but a temperament
guarantee for the life of the dog is not smart, in my opinion. How the dog is raised has much more of an impact than its bloodlines do.
- Show quality guarantee from a breeder who doesn't show.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I have my own thoughts of what I would do as a breeder, but overall, I think breeders who have contracts have thought out their breedings a bit more than those who don't have a contract. I don't even understand why someone would choose not to have a contract. It's to protect their business but also protect and accommodate their puppy buyers. I feel it's sort of a baseline type thing when you have a business and are selling something, especially something that's alive and has needs. I just think that contracts that only state protection of their own butts are annoying because contracts are designed to cover both parties, not just the breeder.

There was one breeder whom I was seriously considering buying my first pup from and I asked to see the contract, and they wouldn't allow me to until I paid a $500 nonrefundable deposit. I don't like that.

 

[ravendarat]

Hey Hemigirl!

Things I don't like:

- Gotta give the pup back to the breeder to get a replacement if s/he gets a debilitating health issue
- When different colors are more expensive than the others.. errgh
- Minimum age to breed sixteen months old
- You must get OFA screenings at 24 months old - I prefer PennHIP because they do it a mathematical way rather than the objective way
- If buyer succeeds in breeding SQ dog, buyer must pay breeder price of first pick pup to "buy into" the bloodlines (what??)

Things I really do quite like:

- Right of first refusal. Seems to me like the breeder actually cares if that puppy ends up being homeless
- Puppy kindergarten and basic obedience is a requirement
- Feeding of high quality food such as Eagle Pack or something equal
- Show quality dogs may not breed to another [same breed] of inferior quality
- When, in the contract, they explain why something is there and doesn't just say it
- Breeder retains the right to send a representative to the dog's new home to "check up" on it

On the fence about:

- Temperament guarantee. I understand temperament guarantee within like 48 hours of the puppy coming home, but a temperament
guarantee for the life of the dog is not smart, in my opinion. How the dog is raised has much more of an impact than its bloodlines do.
- Show quality guarantee from a breeder who doesn't show.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I have my own thoughts of what I would do as a breeder, but overall, I think breeders who have contracts have thought out their breedings a bit more than those who don't have a contract. I don't even understand why someone would choose not to have a contract. It's to protect their business but also protect and accommodate their puppy buyers. I feel it's sort of a baseline type thing when you have a business and are selling something, especially something that's alive and has needs. I just think that contracts that only state protection of their own butts are annoying because contracts are designed to cover both parties, not just the breeder.

There was one breeder whom I was seriously considering buying my first pup from and I asked to see the contract, and they wouldn't allow me to until I paid a $500 nonrefundable deposit. I don't like that.

That part is absolutely ridiculous to me. So the breeder is saying "I require you to sign a contract to get one of my puppies, but you can't see what your going to be forced to sign until you give me partial payment" In what world is that even close to good business? Some people are just plain old fashion stupid.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

I appreciate all the feed back It allows me to see what potential puppy buyers are seeing in my contracts and what I can do to make it easier but still protect everyone, especially the puppy.

 

[Cody]

Hey Hemigirl!

Things I don't like:

- Gotta give the pup back to the breeder to get a replacement if s/he gets a debilitating health issue
- When different colors are more expensive than the others.. errgh
- Minimum age to breed sixteen months old
- You must get OFA screenings at 24 months old - I prefer PennHIP because they do it a mathematical way rather than the objective way
- If buyer succeeds in breeding SQ dog, buyer must pay breeder price of first pick pup to "buy into" the bloodlines (what??)

Things I really do quite like:

- Right of first refusal. Seems to me like the breeder actually cares if that puppy ends up being homeless
- Puppy kindergarten and basic obedience is a requirement
- Feeding of high quality food such as Eagle Pack or something equal
- Show quality dogs may not breed to another [same breed] of inferior quality
- When, in the contract, they explain why something is there and doesn't just say it
- Breeder retains the right to send a representative to the dog's new home to "check up" on it

On the fence about:

- Temperament guarantee. I understand temperament guarantee within like 48 hours of the puppy coming home, but a temperament
guarantee for the life of the dog is not smart, in my opinion. How the dog is raised has much more of an impact than its bloodlines do.
- Show quality guarantee from a breeder who doesn't show.

That's all I can think of at the moment. I have my own thoughts of what I would do as a breeder, but overall, I think breeders who have contracts have thought out their breedings a bit more than those who don't have a contract. I don't even understand why someone would choose not to have a contract. It's to protect their business but also protect and accommodate their puppy buyers. I feel it's sort of a baseline type thing when you have a business and are selling something, especially something that's alive and has needs. I just think that contracts that only state protection of their own butts are annoying because contracts are designed to cover both parties, not just the breeder.

There was one breeder whom I was seriously considering buying my first pup from and I asked to see the contract, and they wouldn't allow me to until I paid a $500 nonrefundable deposit. I don't like that.

However Pennhip has it's problems as well. The % a dog receives is based on the number of dogs of that breed tested. So a bitch that was done 3 years ago, when only lets say there where 25 tested, receives a grade in the 90th percentile. So fast forward 3 years later, there are now 300 dogs of that breed tested. That same dog if tested again may very well now be in the 60th percentile, if the hips on the breed have improved. Yet they can still market dog as 90th % pennhip. That and Pennhip may give a low score but not say that the dog is DJD where as OFA will. You can't really fail Pennhip but you can certainly fail OFA.
I believe that both OFA and Pennhip have their plus and minus, I personally like the OFA scores. If you fail you fail.
Do you know what % a dog is in Pennhip to have the possibility of developing DJD, in the Corso at least? Is surprisingly high.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I believe that contracts can be a good thing but some breeders take it over the top. For a moment I have an uneasy about a breeder I look elsewhere.

 

[AKBull]

I supposed I can add something to think about. Discussing with the breeder or potential owner about changing something on a contract. Initially Junior's breeder wanted him Neutered at 12 months (if he's not being shown), I asked her if she'd change it to 18 months because blah blah blah. She did. He was also on a show only contract and the person who was to buy him backed out, when I contacted her Junior was then 12 weeks old and she still wanted him on that type on contract. I said I might be interested in showing him, but I really don't want to be forced into it. With the price they were asking and not too many other seriously interested people, she changed the contract to pet only, and she'd change it again if I ever want to show him.

 

[NeoBull]

A little OT, but I LOVE this idea... A Giant Schnauzer breeder I was looking into takes 25% of your next dog from them for every title you earn with your dog for up to 75% off (AKC CH, Obedience, Schutzhund, Agility, etc) I think it's a great motivation to get buyers to: a. do more with their dogs, b. make your kennel look better since more of the dogs you sell are earning titles, c. get buyers to come back to you for their next dog.

The breeder my friend is getting her new Rott pup from refunds the owners $50 for any titles they earn including a CGC, also a great idea for the same reasons

 

[reina]

However Pennhip has it's problems as well. The % a dog receives is based on the number of dogs of that breed tested. So a bitch that was done 3 years ago, when only lets say there where 25 tested, receives a grade in the 90th percentile. So fast forward 3 years later, there are now 300 dogs of that breed tested. That same dog if tested again may very well now be in the 60th percentile, if the hips on the breed have improved. Yet they can still market dog as 90th % pennhip. That and Pennhip may give a low score but not say that the dog is DJD where as OFA will. You can't really fail Pennhip but you can certainly fail OFA.
I believe that both OFA and Pennhip have their plus and minus, I personally like the OFA scores. If you fail you fail.
Do you know what % a dog is in Pennhip to have the possibility of developing DJD, in the Corso at least? Is surprisingly high.

That's true. Though, don't they test each of the hips and give a certain rating, eg. 0.55/0.53? I understand about the percentile thing they have though. To me it doesn't mean much because, like you said, it's based on the dogs tested at that time.

I remember reading on a Presa's breeders site that the ratings mean something:

0.30-0.39 is excellent, 0.40-0.49 is good, to fair and then borderline and dysplastic is 0.70 and up. Don't quote me on that though. I'm sure that if the breeder of my puppy required that I do OFA on my dogs, I would, as well as PennHIP for my own preferences. I would really have no problem doing both now that I've read what you've said in your last sentence.

---------- Post added at 11:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 PM ----------

That part is absolutely ridiculous to me. So the breeder is saying "I require you to sign a contract to get one of my puppies, but you can't see what your going to be forced to sign until you give me partial payment" In what world is that even close to good business? Some people are just plain old fashion stupid.

I know! I couldn't believe it and it really turned me off that particular breeder in that regard. I like the bloodlines they based on but I would want to speak to several of their references if I ever considered them again.